Orientalism, Sexualization, and Fear

0:00 Welcome to the Trek Wars Podcast, the Internet's best source for answering the one question, the most important question in fandom, which is better Star Trek Star Wars. We're Babylon five. I am but one of your co hosts, Kenny Madison with me as Per always my co host with the mo host Aspen Webster. Aspen like the tree, Webster like the dictionary. I like lots of things. I'm a Leo. I'm also a Libra moon, a Scorpio rising. If you ever want to just like check that out and see you know anything more about me? Yep, that's me. Also, I like Star Wars and I like Star Trek. Now, Aspen, are you a fan of kind of gothic horror? I fucking love gothic horror. I also love who Dunn It's I love haunted houses. I love lots of things, and I felt deeply confused about my feelings while watching a lot of stuff today.

0:57 That's Greg as we cover from Star Wars E Horrorville's Huts of Horrors versus The Tragic Flute versus Wolf in the Fold from Star Trek the original series. Yes, my Duddah, my guy, Yes, had a great time also had a weird time, had a confusing time, but philt Okay, how are you O? Wait? Sorry, we should do Yeah, I don't know. I felt great, but uh, for people that are playing the at home version of Trek Wars podcast, perhaps we should add some premises to catch listeners up on where the heck we are in the seasons? Sure my starting? Yes? Ah great? Okay, so we got a little two fur Horror Horrorville's Huts of a Horror so in the Tragic Flu Both of them were at least November fifteenth, nineteen eighty six. Let's see, looks like Horrville's Hut of Horrors written by Paul Deani and then Tragicallute written by Bob Carral just our fabulous of friends, Dale shot as director as typically typical. It seems like they've just like been the guys this time around. Yes, I would be eager. I would love to talk to anyone that worked on these shows. I have the first idea of how to reach anyone, because there is just so little literature on. As we've said before, the Droids and Ewok's TV shows important pieces of Star Wars law that even in massive oral histories

2:31 there might be at most like a paragraph. Meanwhile, like these shows were on for two years, Kenny, how do we find these people? Let's get in touch with Pauldini. We'll just like send an email. Okay, So, like, do you want to be on a podcast? Do you want to just chat? Yeah? In the state of Texas, only one party has to be aware that someone's being recorded, and you could be the party recording. You can't do that in other states and other states, both parts have to know they're being recorded. Isn't that weird? I'm not saying we're going to do that to Pauldini. Please don't think we're going to do that to Paldini. You know what I have to say to that? What's and I know I'm being recorded and Kenny knows he's being recorded. So we are all having a consensual recording slash here. But isn't that fucked up?

3:23 That is, although I guess in some cases perhaps not, like if you were in a situation of abuse and you're recording someone without their knowledge, So maybe anyway. Horrible Cut of Horrors, Wickett takes the walk, links to a spooky carnival show and upsets the younger eu Woks. He tries to entertain them to forget about the trauma. That's such a good description. It's true, it's literal, Like the energy of that episode is older older siblings traumatize younger siblings and it is great. And then in The Tragic Flutes, Littara gets captured by a sea creature and her friends venture underwater to help her, specifically a sea creature who is a crabman with a mustache who tests out if you are selfish or greedy or not, and if you fail his test puts you inside of his body. It takes you to his underground castle and forces you to be a mermaid, and then your friends have to find you and save you and pass the test. There's a surprising amount of horror and kidnapping these episodes. I just watch these episodes and read the descriptions, is reminding me how much they rocked. Like what the fuck. There's a character that shows up in the Tragic Flute that's like a little fish, and I was like, this is exactly the kind of character I would play if this were like a kid's improv show, Like I would have come out and been like,

4:57 oh my guys, I'm just a little fish. So glad to help. Oh good anyway, Speaking of being so glad to help, here's the plot synopsis from and I'm pulling this from. These are the Voyages tos season two from Mark Cushman. And this press release for Wolf in the Fold, written by Robert Block direct by Joseph Pepney has pulled through a press release issued by Embassy NBC. You should sorry, Embassy would be great? Is should? From the Embassy press release issued November twenty seventh, nineteen sixty seven.

5:38 Captain Kirk risks the lives of his entire personnel when he transfers a murder investigation to the Enterprise. In Wolf in the Fold on NBC Television Networks Star Trek Color cast Friday, December twenty second, Kirk, Mister Smock, and doctor McCoy take Scotty to pluge your planet. Arc Jellias ar Gellias too to help him recover from an injury. A beautiful dancer, Cara, is knifed to death while with while with Scotti, and evidence points to him a great writing hold on. During the investigation, two more women are murdered, and Scotty again is suspected. The inquiry is bogged down by Hengist, the Argyllian administrator, until Kirk insists that be moved to the enterprise. Then evidence begins to point to a Jack the Ripper type Charles McAuley Portrays Jarris, Ruler of Argellias, and peelr Surat his wife Cibo Cibo A serious boy? Oh boy?

6:36 Did you know the guy who played mister Hengist Hingeist tingist Hngist. It was pronounced a couple of different ways, much like Leah leah han and han uh is the voice of Piglet. Oh, most definitely, as soon as you started talking, it was like, wait a second. I mean it didn't help that every other line out of his mouth was oh yeah, who was like one and just like really giving it away. Dude's a one trick pony, am I right? Uh? Speaking of one trick pony? Is that what we think about all of these episodes today? Is it just Star Truck on Star Wars doing their usual thing. Oh my gosh, Well, I would say Kenny in some ways, maybe a little bit. In other ways, I'd say, no, Surre. This was a fun time. Actually.

7:26 I like a couple of times during that you WOTX episodes, I out loud cackled. I was like, Wow, this is dynamic and interesting and funny and weird, and uh gasped during a wolf in the Fold and literally said out loud to no one, Wow, I love who had done it? Just yelled it so well. Also, I out loud went ah, I love it, who done it? But I don't like orientalism and weird shit like this. I just don't know what you're talking about. In the slightest aspen. Also, I love spooky shit. Both of them are.

8:07 It's so funny that we had Kat'spaw Kat's Paw, which is presumably supposed to be like the Halloween episode of Star Trek, but this is the scary ass at there's some scary shit. I love it some Jack the Ripper shit, listen, because that is what it is. This is ultimately like this sort of timeless spirit of misogyny and murder and serial killerism that is embodying in things like Jack the Ripper. I guess presumably, I think, isn't it. I guess spoiler it's it is like the idea, right that it is Jack the Ripper. But it's been the same kind of thing over the years for like a Millennia that engages in like terrorizing people and then murdering them. Yes, now, yeah, asp yeah. Did you cite kat'spaw for a specific reason outside of just its tonal reference? No, that's so funny because both of those episodes were written by Robert Block, writer of Psycho. What Wolf in the Fold? Is Robert Block getting yet another assignment for a script and just being like, cool, what else have I written? And he Pilfer is from one of his short stories titled Yours Truly, Jack the Ripper, first published in Weird Tales in nineteen forty three, and according to these are the voyages in an interview that Robert Block did for I'm well, I would read the notations, but I'm just pulling this from the book. Apparently that

9:41 was their idea, referring to both Gene Roddenberry and Gene Coon. They wanted Robert Block to do a Jack the Ripper story but in the future, and that's exactly what they did. Good job. Do you think Jane and Jane ever got confused? Yes? Next question, okay, I never runs that is Shue. No one else has ever named Aspen and if they were, I'd have to high lander them. Anyway, which is very anti antithetical too. Usually what your whole vibe is aspen, Yeah, my vibe is typically not chopping people's heads off, I would say, as a rule, Uh okay, that's funny. Yeah, I did not. I did not clock that it was the same writer. I liked how but I truly enjoyed.

10:28 There is a point in the episode where one there is a seance basically, and I love a seance, and there's spooky fog at one point when they do take it up to the ship and they're doing some kind of more straightforward, straightforward like what are those what are those machines? Truth telling? They doing tector tests, and then it's like this thing gets out. It can like get into other people's bodies, and it gets out into the ship itself, and there's just this like disembodied voice. It's just like terror and I was like, so spooky. Similarly, they're in the Horrible Set of Horrors.

11:13 There's like some creatures in there that I was like, this is the scariest thing I've ever seen. And I was really upset we didn't actually get to go through the Haunted House. I was like, I want to be terrified. Well, you can't. You can't terrify the actual little walklings in the real world that I were watching this show. That's true. It is a show, as we've said before, for babies, but for slightly older babies said no, it's yeah. So yeah, no, no, no, no, no. I I like spooky shit. So I was having a great time. Yeah. I enjoyed these e Walks episodes as well.

11:56 They're very I don't know, like the writing is just nailing it. Either that or I'm just getting excited that we're getting closer to the end, and so I'm just relishing the time that we have with Ewok's that is left because we are so close, so close, so close. It's been so much fun. And also it's just I mean, when the Prospect is doing Clone Wars and you're so close to Clone Wars, we're so close. But then we'll be in the middle of Clone Wars clothes Wars, We'll just be like, oh, I guess it's the uh oh boy, it's the Droid arc. This is not a fun place to be in. We'll find ourselves wishing for rebels and I don't know, I don't know, because I've got which is very exciting yeah, real quick, Can I tell you you know this about me? I love Who Done It's like I wrote it down, It's in the show notes. I love them. I literally directed Who Done It?

12:58 Show? I love them. My favorite movie is Knives Out. I also your favorite movie is Knives Out? Yep, it is. I did not know that about you. Yeah. In my top five is Knives Out in Hot Fuzz for sure, I'll have to think about this. Both those movies are Who Done It? Yeah? Yeah? Who? Who's who had done? Who has done it? Who done did it? Who? What is the plural of who done it? Who done it? Who done It's? Who done? Who? We all did done it? Yes? And also, uh, there's this really cool game that Joel and I will play.

13:41 Duel is my partner, and it is in fact, it is a Sherlock game that is like you get a case and then you decide to follow leads and the leads will give you and it's like in a booklet, and so you can decide to go to like a certain location in London and you can find like where in London, and you can like follow these leads and we're in this like it's you know, so it's like Sherlock and but or like it's like his uh uh, like his little like the kids, the irregulars and stuff, and that he like pays to go solve crimes and stuff.

14:22 And now we're in this one that's all about like Jack the Ripper stuff and it's based on like real murders, and so I just was into it. Look, no spoilers for Star Trek six, a movie that we will cover way in the future. Yeah, but if you like show out Holmes, Oh, you're gonna love Star Trek six. Great, great, I feel great, Kenny, Sorry, please please please please, I will stop. I will stop going on and on. Oh that's okay, because it is so interesting that you're talking about loving Who Done It? Because and I'm going to title this segment the Deep Bird into Star Trek this week, this episode based off of previous short story that's written by Robert Block. However, this show was gonna get Jack the Ripper into the computer much sooner. Glad it didn't, and so it would have been yet another episode of Kirk fighting the computer once again, and that does not happen in this episode. It's good. Instead, the longer who Done It aspect happens and it kind of just becomes There are not that many sets, but the sets there are actually quite ornate. We have the Our Gallias two, uh pleasure building because Our Gallias two is a hedonistic society where I guess it's not specifically set in the

15:54 text, but I guess all of the women are just belly dancers, which well, well, well, well, well, well I will back up. I see that, and I'm like belly dancers. But I suppose if you're coming from a perspective of strong orientalism and uh sexualization of things like just a form of dance that is belly dancing, that is, uh is part of a different culture, and you do see that as highly sexualized, and perhaps you would put them into the category of sex workers, not you personally. One might the I believe the line that Scotty says to Kirk and or McCoy is going all of the women, but they never finish it. Oh, I thought he just meant hot all the women are hotties. It is all of the women not hot. Uh. Yeah, this episode, I was like you for like the first five minutes, and then as soon as murder happened, I went, yeah, I'll give you three seconds to for you to guess whose idea the Pleasure Planet was Gene Rodenberry. There we go.

17:15 Good job, Asmin. I know my genes, I know my Gene, and he's gross versus Gene Kuhn, who would just probably be more like, can we like make this fun? Oh, Gene got a lot of the more fun aspects. Stop that. Stop stop that. I know you want to clap for me, It's not right now inappropriate. I mean a lot of the more recognizable aspects from Star Trek are thanks to you, Gene Kuhn. And then as we start transitioning from Genekun to John Meredith Lucas and then eventually Fred Freiberger and season three, you can you can feel Gene coon not being at the helm. Does it get less fun? It just yes, well it just we've already touched on it. Boring with obsession. Oh believe I don't like her when things become less fun. I few do athen except for Snyder Bros. Who actually are just like good. I don't want fun, Yeah, I want to suffer. Should we cover Rebel Moon?

18:30 I genuinely until yesterday did not know what that was. And Joel showed me the rotten Tomatoes score on it of like twenty percent, and I was like, what the fuck is that? And he was like, Zax sandersy movie and I was like, what the fuck is that? I have so little patience. That's correct, Yes, I actually have a lot of patience, but not for that. Yes, we're not talking about Zack Snyder. We're talking about God, thank God, Star Trek right now. So yes, this became more of a who done it because of that. Originally I believe it was supposed to be Sulu that was on trial for almost killing all them ladies, but they were like, we should use Scotty instead. Okay.

19:27 Two points here. One, this is the second time you've told me that Sulu was considered for something and then someone else was used instead. When does Sulu get to do stuff and have focus, especially considering you might have noticed that or not, probably because Sulu is very much on the periphery. But during this season, Sulu is in a movie with John Wayne the green Berets. He's filming at the same time as season two is going on. Okay, which is also one of the reason. This is why Chakov gets foregrounded more and he's a presence on the bridge because Sulu is literally not there because he's filming a movie with John Wayne. Okay, if you have a cast member that is in a movie with John Wayne, why are you not giving him more roles to do? Yeah? But okay, I know the answer to that. Oh I wonder, I wonder what I could be. Every time someone has been like, perhaps Zulu could be focused, someone's just like, I just can't put my finger on why. I don't want that to be true, not to less than the work that James Dowan did in the slightest Sure, and also they sure gave check a whole lot to do.

20:47 Yeah, they have given Scotty a lot to do. It's almost like it's like a hoa and Sulu aren't getting a lot to do. It's almost like there's a running theme of backpack adding liberalism that Jeene Roddenberry has put into the core of Star Trek that runs to this day, to this day, every fucking thing. Every time I'm like someone saying like, look at this diversity we've achieved, and then that person gets absolutely nothing to do within a show or a movie, and even worse, as an actor is treated like shit, I mean so cool, am I? Right? Real? Liberalism, like what we did. Oh wow, just like on one today number one sounds like we got some racism. Great too. I would say the biggest problem with the episode is the racist the racism and the sexism. But you know, oh that it's great. I mean I would I would like for you to go more into the orientental orientalism aspects. So this episode starts off with because you're just smart and I want to hear it. That's kind.

21:57 Let me just say my second thing here is that Scottie walks out with this woman and they go walking in the fog and he says to her, do you know about like fog in Aberdeen? And all I could think was you're on another planet. You're not even on Earth and you're like referring to a specific city in Scotland. No, I do not know about the fog in Aberdeen. I don't know what Aberdeen is. Yeah, like where what what planet are you from? I don't even know what planet you're talking about in the first place, And that I would certainly not know a city in a space that is actually part of another United Kingdom anyway. It's just so specific, So I find I mean, I think I don't know how much more I could add to it beyond just generalized frustration I have with this. We see the same thing with Oryan girls, like you know, you've talked about the fact that we're going to paint them green or so that they can be emblematic or like suggestive of having a different skin tone than a classic white or classic what we see as default, so that they can be exotified. And then the same thing here where it's like clearly calling forth a kind of Arabic

23:32 culture, a general generic Arabic culture, and then attaching that with just hedonism hedonisms very specifically. And it's so interesting because this actor, this woman who this dancer is fabulous. She gets a whole dance number that is so impressive, Like this is difficult stuff, and she's so talented, and everybody's just like ogling her. And if feels upsetting, Scotty is just like gross. Everyone is gross. Kirk is in fact to doing this sort of like predatory predatory glare thing that I'm just like. We we talk about Kirk Drift frequently, right article from Strange Horizons and the freshly remembered Kirkdrift article that you can find quite easily but this is Kirk fulfilling it. All of the men being very gross. I know a place where the women are so hot, they're so into having sex with you. Yeah, I mean it's lazy of the time. I am sure it was, like I imagine, very common.

24:55 Already seen it in Star Trek. Yeah, the kind of it. Also there's almost a sense too, so when the first murder happens, it's established that there is a kind of there's a prefect of this planet with his wife, and they're just very much like they're not only like hedonistic, they're also very they don't they're very non violent too, and they actually the quote that I wrote down is the law of Argelias. It's love cute. So they had to bring in this guy from Rachel four, who is this mister hingist and just the voice of Piglet. Yes, I should have just written I wrote it down his name the way it was spelled, but I should have written it down the way it was said who he was brought in, because it's like they just don't deal with this kind of stuff. So if that brings one in from another like a magistate or something from like another planet, Rachel too. Rachel four. Sorry's hopefully this isn't all right Rachel two versus Rachel four. We're played by price prices, right rules, Rachel four closest without going older over the other one. Next time we go see a movie has to like buy a minesota. There we go, Rigel four. Yeah,

26:30 buddy, by thanks a fabulous so I wrote, I wrote down, Well, here's why, because I wrote down from Rachel four. Dude is the voice of Piglet. That's how I know. But so not only that is, there's this piece two of so they are highly sexualized and also infantalized there, you know, love, and they can't all their own problems or have their own piece, they have to have people from other places come in. So yeah, I mean, pretty straightforward, classic example of bullshit.

27:11 And then you cut you couple that with the seance that they do, which is endowing it with justicism mysticism, yes, which isn't necessarily problematic, but just going yeah, in tandem with the tropes because they are in this vaguely orientalist backdrop, just as set dressing for alien culture of the week. Yeah. Well, and it actually, I will say the seance piece of it, the fact that she is like has this sort of like empathic contact ability that end and up itself very much like the sort of again and that's sort of exodified like whoa, but the but the mysticism piece and then hold on a second, I'm sorry what you just watch Jack the Rippers, mind you the mysticism saance piece though that's actually very English, uh, since that became not English, but you know, it's like very and also in the Americas too, became very popular in a certain period of time when you had like a lot of fantasmic gloria pieces. So kind of going back to Cat's Pa stuff and other you know, that's gonna makes sense that we'd be sort of

28:42 hearkening back to like what feels very of a time with like Jack the Ripper, Foggy London, uh, trying to sort of commune with spirits to understand what's happening. So it is an interesting sort of crossover of themes, yes, but the rest of it too, yeah, just sort of it reeks it reeks of orient orientalism and racism. And then there's just like a dash of weird misogyny thrown on top. Though for what it's worth, I mean, Jack the ripperd that all of his targets were in fact women, and often like lower class women, and they were also sex workers. Often.

29:22 It is just dicey for me to watch this now. The beginning of the episode, McCoy is just like, sure, glad that we can get Scotty to like women again. Ever since he was into that explosion that a woman caused. I was like, men are causing explosions all the time, and you don't hate them. And then the central premise of the episode is Scotty can't. Scotty claims he can't remember killing all of these women, even though you literally find him with a bloody knife in his hand and a woman falls from the knife as he has jammed it into her back. Yeah, I understand. Its science fiction. Yeah, and also the optics from our present day standpoint a real bad. It's fun I well, yeah, because I yeah, I have to let go and just be like this is released in nineteen sixty seven, right, and a bunch of boys are in charge of this TV ship. I did have an interesting moment where I was like just wow, one single interesting moment where I was like wow. In this episode

30:55 about the brutal murder of women, they're exactly three women who get to speak, two of whom are murdered brutally, and one is just a yeoman. Because that's one single line, and I was like that that makes a lot of sense for sure. I also my favorite, absolute favorite moment, which was the idea that women would be murdered specifically because they are more easily terrified than men. And so this creature, this Jack the ripper of creature, like you know, serial killers, like I get you scared first so that I could really enjoy this, which is patently untrue. Have you seen me around a small lizard? I have not, and I would love to.

31:49 I will punch anything in everything around me to get away because I do not want to get tickled by that thing, like one of those little green list you ever seen one, know, one of those like big old boys, they have that little red thing that comes out of their neck. If you could send me picture so I could put that in the show notes, that'd be great. I'm from Florida, where we have just so many fucking lizards, and then these big guys would just be like rap rap, Sorry, I know I'm terrifying you right now. What did you think of the Cepo's power of empathic touch into it, into it. That's a pretty cool power.

32:36 I'm into it. I'd hate it to have it. I kind of have it. I have it. Do you have it? You can have empathic touch? Oh? Or is it only wimurder people raised as woman and I could have impound out touch? Well, I just think, look, because the central conflict of the episode is Scottie kill murder all these women. But I just wish that there was some character with like an established telepathic ability that could have just gone into someone's mind and just been like verified, some sort of barried truth, like like if Cibo or like I don't know if some character had that power and could have just been like, would it be okay if I could, I don't know, like oh, put my mind to your mind? Oh god, okay. A Spock was like, I'm busy, well aspen and this is the also the fun of doing research.

33:51 I wouldn't know. Apparently, egos needed to get maintained, specifically William Shatner's ego, because mister Nimoy had by this point Gutten nominated for an Emmy and was getting a lot of fan mail and folks behind the scenes were just like Shatner's becoming more difficult. Let's put let's Spock on the sideline this episode. Oh he really was signelined. Yeah, but you don't really notice because you're just like, you're just popping along with the pretty good episode. And then Spock comes along towards the ladder half and doesn't really have that much dialogue.

34:34 Mm hmmm, almost as much as a woman, you know, a woman. Yeah, yeah, instead of get thing the whole time, I was just like the woman woman. Yeah, but he does get that iconic line, iconic line about how women are more terrified than men just naturally by just by definition, they just get so fucking scared of little lizards. No, that's me. You're you're confusing. Sorry what I don't confusing? Most women? What mean? Red bird? Red red neck? Just I don't want to get tickled? Who does? Who likes being tickled? Who likes it?

35:14 Fetishists? Yeah, sure, and we won't We will not shame them, but like who else? Uh? Speaking of fetishists? All right, we've got star wars. Let's talk about some star wars, and let's talk about EU woks. Did you like the part where uh? Okay, uh where Wicked he uh uh Tebo sets up this like a little device to suck the bad dreams out of the walkling's heads while they're sleeping, and it works, but then it falls over and all the bad dreams go into Wicked's brain and then he has a Dolly esque sort of landscape that he runs through.

35:55 I loved that melting locks, there were clocks. Did you also like when Latara got picked up by a hand inside of a shell and then dropped into the body of a mustachioed crab. Yeah, I loved it. I too loved it. I mean King Galbo, we like him. He likes to be honest. Well in the Tragic Flute and the Tragic Flute, Well, I did find it. So the idea here is that, Yeah, so this is that second episode is that Nissa, being true of heart, loses her little ankle bracelet, her anklet, and he's like in the water and he comes up like rubble in the water, and then he's just like, it is your anklete. She's like no, and he's like your anklin they're beautiful and vidual. She's like no, And then he pulls out hers and then he gives them all to her because she was honest to Latar, being a little shit is like I hate this flute that friends made me with their own hands that she wants some one, and she just goes launches into like real intense, like greedy face. So this this, this mustachioed crab man, king elbow, king elbow basically is like they go to rescue her, and at the end of it, he's like got this like sort of Austin Bowers esque idea of like a mutated sting ray shark that's like gonna eat them.

37:30 It's like sharks with lasers. And she has to find like the best treasure, which you know, of course, like a spoiler, it's the flute that her friends made her. And I was just like, this dude is willing to murder these children for the principle of it, and that is badass. You can't stand you can't stand a liar. In fact, if you hate a liar, you really should be like so committed to that hatred that you will kill children. I think it's worth it. I think that's you know, murder. I think it's fine. Absolutely, yeah, dude, I was doing do it and then not only that, just writing it down I wrote this down. The episode isn't about the reward of telling the truth like in Prout Beaten, but the punishment. Why yeah, because it's not. You're not rewarding Latara for finally tying the truth. No, they're just allowed to escape. Yeah, well she learns she has a real Last Crusade moment where she's like, well it actually it's more like Last Crusade has more of a tragic flute moment. You know what I'm I was trying to think of when Last Crusade came out after really yeah, this was released in eighty six. Last Crusade came out in eighty nine. Oh that's when I was born. Yeah, no, stop eighty eight, No eighty nine?

39:07 What? Yes? What? Yeah? What year? What? What month? Nineteen eighty nine? That's the year. I say? What month? What month? Wait? Month is it? What month? Is it? Summer? Memorial Day? Oh my god, that was actually the tagline He's back in an All New Adventure Memorial Day nineteen eighty nine, May twenty fourth, nineteen eighty I feel weird, but you know what, this makes sense because of a River of Phoenix being the agy was so okay, I'm back. I just feel like I should have known that. I like to know things about the year I was born, the fall of the Berlin Wall, the birth of Taylor Swift, Last Crusade being released. I can't believe I did it no well in terms of the research that you did for this episode, you chose poorly. Yeah. Yeah, Look, Meanwhile, Horrorville's had of horrors. The Warriors are going on their overnight trip. Well, Wicked wants to go, but he's got to go. Babiesit those walklings. Yeah, I want to see a baby show. Meanwhile, I'm looking at them tumble bunnies and I'm just being like, let them go. They were so cute. Yeah, those tumble bunnies were fantastic. Yeah. Hey, we're only children. We never had to like take our younger siblings anywhere because we didn't have any younger siblings. No, we had to take care of other family members like we had to. We had to parent our parents. So

40:39 well, it's not don't don't speak for don't speak for all of us. Oh, we've never experienced truly the horror of being like I guess I have to like take my younger siblings everywhere. Did this episode for you? Give you a taste of that experience. No, because I was just vibing with the tumble Bunnies, and also because I had such a people pleaser as a child. If I got a directive from my parents to do a thing, I would do the thing. Right. So they said, don't go to the Horrorvilles how to Horror Show, I would not go to the Horrorville's how To Horror Show, and I would sit there and grit my teeth during the tumble Bunny Show, even though I would be delighted by it. Sure, sure, so you would do what they said, but you'd be resentful, Yes, like so many things in my life. Yeah, what would I do? I think I also probably wouldn't have done if I had been explicitly told not to go do it. Well, personally, I think that your charisma would have gotten you cast in the tumble Bunny show, and then the show would have actually been pivoted around you. No, no, no, those tumble Bunnies are the star. Wow, they're so cute, spoken like the humble celebrity that you are. Oh my god, baby, you can join my car. What is interesting? What is interesting? A question we ask what is interesting about these episodes? Well, it's interesting serendipity that happens

42:12 by doing it this way, and the fact that we have a Star Wars and the Star Trek this week, and to a much lesser extent, tragic flute. But treating fear as some sort of amorphous thing as opposed to an emotion that is experienced. Even though Jack the Ripper I haven't really talked about the fact that Jack the Ripper is in the episode, and he's known as Red Jack, and it is a piece of cosmic horror that he goes. He can steal bodies and go into the mind of the computer, he can become the computer. It's send a terble lift into prefall either way. That's all of that, but more that the show is interested in wishing fear as this other, this greater force that is able to corrupt the sensibilities of those that encounter it, to do bad things and trap people in their own actions.

43:20 I I think you're mistaken though, because only women get scared. You're right, yes, So I don't think there's any overlap considering the boys of Ewoks got scared. There are a bunch of boys and they are terrified. That sounds absurd to me. I forgot whenever scared. Whenever the turba lifted a free fall, Kirk and Spock just sat there across their arms and were like, I guess this is happening. They actually did, though, for what it's worth, they were never once scared, and it did kind of piss me off a little bit. Would have loved for people to be a little scared. But that's fine. It's fine, it's fine, it's fine.

44:00 I'm fine. You're right, though, strong overlap of like what what the dominating force of fear will do to you? Can you speak more? Because cosmic Horror me. You want me to speak someone who is just typically historically known to speak is so little. I'm sorry, I fucking talk so much. Thanks for loving me. I love you so much, and we love you audience. Thanks for listening. But cosmic horror is such a blind spot for me. I think a great deal of horror, and I think there is something interesting about the way that both of these franchises, at least within this these two pieces are tackling fear as an external thing. Although this will be there will be running motif in Star Trek. I can't speak to Star Wars because you know, you're the Star Wars contingent, but Star Trek will often time and time again encounter un emotion as some sort of cosmic force.

45:14 Here this week it's fear, and this certainly won't be the only time where fear will manifest into something that will be a threat to characters in your experience with cosmic horror and horror in general personally personally, Yes, what do you know where these notions come from? What they're commenting on? Oh? Well, I interesting. I don't I couldn't say anything with like from any research or learned perspective, but I could make guesses. Yes, you know, I guess ah. I think cosmic horror feels like a manifestation of just forces that are beyond your control, which happens a lot through like the idea of just something so big that like what could we do with this, which I'm sure has some basis and just I'm sure it has like shared DNA with our belief in gods and religion and trying to just explain the what feels unexplainable for us. That would be my biggest guess. I mean, I you know, we think of Lovecraft, who was the kind of cosmic horror king

46:47 and sort of like the like the bigness of it, like when you think of like a creature like a Cuthulu or something that comes from the stars and is just so big that it's actually too much for a human being to comprehend that it leads you to madness. And so that absolute sense of just the fear of what can I even do in the face of this thing, I would guess comes from this sense of like just to be human in the world, you would often experience this, and so we put it into those terms of it being like a creature, just the bigness of things like you look at like if there's a creature like a Cuthulhu, of like in the depths of the rolling sea, and the ocean is such an unknown and a horrific concept and idea to give it sort of a character as opposed to just the vastness of the sea, it almost makes it both more understandable and then more terrifying because you have given it some size in space that makes sense. It allows for the work to tackle fear as a character and is able to dramatize something that is very difficult to dramatize because you were just wrestling with emotions and instead, if you put it in a red jack, if you put it in in Wicket's case, you were able to catch all the bad dreams and

48:23 then you're and then those bad dreams are then you are then suffering the bad dreams. You are suffering the fear with that, and you are tackling becoming responsible for having caused that fear and learning how to be a responsible leader, and necess like a warrior isn't necessarily just all excited with all the bravery aspects, but also just being responsible right as well. We're in Star Trek's case, Yeah, literally just tackling fear. And you know, they make calculate pie and then they're able to beam it into space and destroy fear because you need an ending of your episode. But the way that they use fear here is just kind of I don't know, seeing how it can pervert souls into doing dreadful things. We're not entirely sure that Wolf of the Fold is saying anything other than let's have a rip roaring adventure. That's a who done it on the enterprise and h so I find whenever they get to the conference room and they're just doing light detector stuff. Meanwhile, Spock is there. Mind melds have been established and use more than once, right, Yeah, and you're short changing yourself by having Spock mind meld with the cosmic embodiment of fear.

49:52 Oh, wouldn't that be fabulous? It would But Shatner's ego, it's too big, not that even that was even necessarily a story. Just you know, you're sure changing your opportunities from having a uh meditation on fear, which not every episode needs to be meditation. Sometimes it's just find that you have a little barn Burner adventure that's a little who done it? Turned out it was Piglet, it was well, it was presumably that man's dead body being possessed by this thing, because as soon as it left his body, he was dead, which I found to be looking cool. I love that some like revenant shit. Soon like I was just like, why is he dead? And I was like, boh, it's because he was inhabbiting his dead body already. I love that. There's a lot of stuff in here that I really love because I love spooky shit and I love who Done It?

50:47 So and then also with Latara having to learn the lesson of don't be a liar mm hmm, as opposed to why bother being subtle whenever you can put the embodiment of the consequences of lying into a big honk and crab, big honk and mustachioed crab. And how speaking of Cuthulu, am I right? Truly? King Elbow one of the most chilling characters in Star Wars? Yes, one, well, although I would also say the characters that are in the like horror Hut, like whatever they were, like those creatures were so fucking scary, Like Torville, the main guy, Like what the fuck is he? Like? Just like he's like he's a weird elongated like skull face. Like, sorry, got it? Correct? You not Torville?

51:44 I said Horrorville. I said Horrorville. He said Tolle. I said Horrville, and I said Rachel for hey, I believe you, you believe me. I just thought that Horrorville was the hammer Head. Oh is he a hammer That's very spooky to be different, But also, look, I've been using the they used the Force this season once. Maybe they're just like we can use this other Star Wars element. Oh okay, that actually makes more sense to me. Like I was just like creeped out by him. But then there were other monsters, sorry, beings, beings there was there was like there was one that also was like could tell your future and they looked like a straight up like little green man alien. And I was like, I do not like this. I do not enjoy you, and that I do enjoy you because you're scaring the shit out of me. What do you like? I like you, I like scary things. I like kittens, I like okra. I like you want me to just name some stuff?

52:53 Or are you trying to segue me? Oh? You were trying to a long time ago. Started dating this week, I quoted a boat. I dated a geek, but none of them could warp my drive into high berth space. The best of both worlds kept me in the second place. Captain's log on a hollow kron. I wanted a sonog. I penned a song seventeen more minutes Advise in super high Def aboard the USS Enterprize DT. Don't you take my walk lighter and clip it? Don't you take my wretchered buddy and nip it? If you spill the tea, I'm gonna sip it.

53:57 I Starship it. I like to starship it? Do you now? For folks that might just be listening to this episode first, that'd be cool that if you're doing that first off shoot us some message Instagram dot com, slash track, wars pod, or on Blue Sky as well. Mail trekworsepot at gmail dot com let us know. But for folks that might be listening to this episode very first, what the heck is I starship it? Oh? Okay, and the starship it. What we shall do is we will both identify our favorite starships slasher vehicles from either property, and then we will discuss our favorite romantic ships from either property. Isn't that so clever? It is clever? You know what else is clever meets uosing this first vehicle with King Elbow, Like, oh, Elbow himself is the vehicle. Yeah, that was actually really clever because he can push you in his body. That is very true. And if you were to work out some sort of situation where you bording for some sort of transportation, I'm sure that King Elbow would be more than happy to help you out, just as long as you tell the truth. You drop your car in there, It's like, is this your car? And I're like no. Then he like pulls out and they're just like what if I just can I just get in? You can? I can? I just get my dats in? Please cool? I love that.

55:25 I was considering the bubble that the little fish makes. But you still can? I can? I can. But I'm going to be a little a little stinker and I'm going to say people people as vehicles and we'll fall. Ryan was just making fun of us. Of no, this is valid, though I know it's valid. I just know that Ryan hill Pass and future cast is going to be make gonna pull his bike over and he's gonna freaking just flip is the middle finger text message and make fun of us.

56:07 That's fine if okay, just like just bear with me, Just bear with me. I'm bearing the embodiment of horror. Can literally literally embody itself by moving into a body and then can move through the stars that by definition is a starship, and then get have that same body transferred out into open space where it is clearly in the stars. Yeah, I'm telling you, that's fine. That's fine. Look at us both being clever. Hey, hey look at us. Okay, those are our vehicles killing it outstanding? But is still anyone's game. As we move over to the relationship aspects, and in terms of shifts this week, it's a pretty lightload. The one actual romantic couple that is textual is the regent of our Galias two and his partner Sebo, which is pretty good. It's serviceable. They seem to care about each other. He's very upset when she's murdered. And then every time you say that, are you quoting Minority Report. Yeah, I am quoting Olivia Coleman's character in Hot Fuzz Murder. It doesn't mean it's murder. It's just the one killer. Actually, Yes, nothing like a little bit of girl

57:40 on girl action. All right, I will ship Jeris and SEBoK Jeris and Sebo whenever Sebo is murdered by red Jack. Red Jack, he's pretty sad and he seems to love his wife a bunch. Yeah. Look, there's a bunch of episodes of Start Truk, all right. Not every ship's going to be a winner. That actually not related to that, but that brings up a fun little thing we didn't really talk too much about, which is the I love this happens in Doctor Who sometimes where you'll hear the kind of like word that actually is like sounds like it's a different language, and maybe it is because it's become part of the language, but it's actually like it's like she in the middle of that sort of seance says like ragic. She says like three words. She says like ragic, barness and caslac. But it's like ragic is red Jack and that is so cool. I just really enjoyed that. And then that's how they discover that he is in the body of Hingist or whatever because a baroness was also a murder who was found murderer found on Rachel four. So it's just a really great reveal. I loved it anyway. Good ship, my ship, and I don't know has this ship been done before, because we got a real, actual moment, a true moment after a season of longing. Latara just like puts one spills smackaro on Tebow's mouth. They just true, straight up kiss on the lips.

59:17 We got wicked Latara, uh huh. But it doesn't look like we've got t Latara up here on This is this is my moment, ah, This is your big old stinky moment. This is my big old stinky moment Tebo and Latara. Uh yeah, Now was that a romantic spooch or was that Latara just being excited for Tebo's there? I think it was a romantic smooch. I mean, I don't know Latara is withholding emotionally, she's selfish, but she learned a really good lesson and she really truly appreciated like Tebo carved that for her. And that's kind of a real like eighties moment of just like, wow, this little dufuss has been the one the whole time, the impression I was getting. But also she's very busy and she owes no one anything. But I thought it was very sweet, especially when he has been longing for so long, Like it was a straight up kiss on the mouth, like we weren't like doing any cutesy kisses. So I think there's some real power in that that makes it a deserved space. Speaking of longing, I'm sure our listeners are longing to find out which one we think is better. This week, Star Treker Star Wars as we find it once for all answer the question which is better by ranking once again Wolf in the Fall

1:00:47 from Star Trek's the original series versus Horrorville's Hut of Horrors and the Tragic Flute from Star Wars Ewoks. You might go first, I will go first. I would give Wolf in the Full the Six interesting. I don't like murder mysteries. I find them dreadfully dull. Oh okay, that explains it. That's so funny. Here I was, I'm sitting there. I mean, I obviously was like giving criticizing it, but I was like, I love murder mystery. I really do love Knives Out and what I appreciate about Knives Out and also poker Face similarly, Yes, is it? I guess I have to praise Colombo too. Just one more thing, but those pieces really to me, as a who done it? Outsider and a person that does not enjoy the genre, I have all of the pieces there, and then it just becomes how do these characters interact after that? As opposed to I just I think anything that is really about murder is just dreadfully dull. I am so bored by it. It feels like every single time something is about a murder, I know all of the beats beforehand, and I just I cannot engage with it. Now. I'm sure that there will be folks out there that can poke logic hoals in there, and to you, I say, you are correct, absolutely, but just murder stories will not be for

1:02:21 me. Ever, that's fine. You know what, I think we're gonna turn it lower. I'm actually gonna put it up vive. Oh my god. Yeah, what a time to be alive. And also the episode could have been not a choice coach, but the entire conflict of the episode could have been resolved by Spock doing a mind melt with Scottie immediately afterwards, even though we have we know that mind melts at this point in Star Trek something that are very done rarely but extenuating circumstances, crew members welfare is on the line as well as you know, weddingjustice butt. Instead, the characters or the episode is obtuse because it has to fill up the run time, right, it could have been an interesting sort of conflict for it to kind of run into like cultural differences type of thing where it was like which it was starting to get to a little bit of like well we don't trust your ways, we have to do it our way. So it could have kind of gone in that direction of like what becomes a valid thing that can hold up in a murder investigation, and we don't trust your way. We only trust our way. So it could have gone that direction, where like it would have been like if we could just get him to spock this folcan, they'd be like, well, we won't trust that because he can just say whatever he wants, like, you know, yeah, it could have been interesting, but it's interested in just being a Jackler Ripper type style thing, where

1:03:54 hey, if they had just done a straightforward slasher on the enterprise, that could have been some good schlocky and instead weird just kind of going around being like, seems like Scotty did it? I tell you, I don't remember. I mean it really did look like Scotti dida. There's a lot that I think is problematic, a lot that is annoying, a lot that is problematic. I do love a murder mystery, though it fills me with great unimaginable joy, I will watch bullshit. So I think I have to weigh those two options. And in fact, I think what I wrote in my notes was basically like I am I am torn between my anxiety. My anxiety around like orientalism and frustration and some of the problems of this and my absolute love for Who Done It is so because of that, I think it will become a seven point two for me, bringing the episode average out to a six point one. But it's still anyone's game. As we go over to Horrorville's Hut of Horrors and the Tragical Flute, I'll give it a robust seven.

1:04:57 Does feel pretty high, you know what? I like both of these episodes, straightforward, concise to the point, have some fun adventures. We got King Elbow, what do you want from me? Yeah? What else? What do you? What? What? What? What? What are you asking? What do you what? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What do you want to me? And he went from me, yeah, let me go seven point six, seven point six outstanding, which means with a collective total of seven point three versus Wolf in the Folds pal three six point one. That means that asmen, I'm the winner. Not only did Star Wars win, I also got to watch it Who'd Done It? It's really it's like I've won. It's a great Sunday. It is a great Sunday, and it's certainly because of you, and it's because of listeners out there like you and Yeah, I'm talking to you right there. Oh sorry, God, sorry, show you to the listener out there. So why don't you do me a favor. Stop what you're doing, pull over, pause your bike, give us a little pat on the back, buy yourself a little treat cause you're worth it, and then take a picture of that treat. And take a picture of that backpad and send it on over to Instagram dot com, slash track wars Pod or a blue Sky account also track wars pod let us see, uh see what the heck you're rewarding yourself with. Additionally, send us an email trek

1:06:29 Warspod at gmail dot com. If you love this podcast so much, please hop on over to track warspod dot com, click on the reviews tab and be directed to the podcaster over your choice to leave a review. And finally, if you just love this podcast so much you literally want to give up your heart earned cash to help us pay the bills, then hop over to Patreon dot com. Slash track, wars Pod and YouTube could join the ospices of fine folks such as timbo De Sosa, Emily Bright, I Love, Heidi Rogers, Kevin Miller, Mark Vibbert, Ryan Hill, and finally, Joel tea partner who composed our Wonderful Eye starship, so thank you so much, and then also toasan Alfesso who composed the fabulous trek Words theme. We did get a message from one of our patrons this week on our Patreon, and I think on the podcast in general, we asked people to send us selfies of them being unhappy, and so too do we get a couple selfies from mister Ryan Hill, our patron. We very much thank you for sending in those selfies, and of course we are taking selfies at any time, so just go ahead and send those in by any means necessary. I asn't anything else before we call it a night. The other night I was I saw a show with some people and one one of them was like, let's take a selfie, and she did. She turned her phone so it was

1:08:00 not the selfie camera. It was the front facing camera of the phone, so we couldn't actually see ourselves, and I genuinely was like, like a like a camera, like an old school camera selfie. So if you want to take a selfie like that, I would also not say no. Aspen, I love you, I love you to you and listeners, we love you out there, may of course be with you and live long and prosper, and also with you