Shame & Plot Motivation

0:27 Welcome to the Track Wars podcast, the one podcast that dares to ask the question which is better Star Trek or Star Wars by going through both of them in chronological release order. The Internet's favorite podcast. I'm the Internet's favorite Trek Wars co host. That is me Kenny Madison, and with me is the other Internet's favorite co host of Trek Wars, Oi Spearwhebster. I told you, I told you I'd keep this character always to me forever. Govnor the rhine and spine holds my name on the plane and the best rhine is for Star Wars Aspen. I feel like you are obsessed when trying to do this character since you've seen the My Fair Ladies stage musical. This sees me Eliza do little. I don't like this. We are talking obsession from Star Trek the original series versus prow Beaten and Boga's rival from Star Wars. He walks Aspen. How do you feel about that? Prow Beating is such a good name for an episode, and I didn't think about it until you literally said it out loud. I was just like Rile Beaten. I was mostly upset about Boga's rival, so for a lot of reasons. I just feel really upset about animals and children being left behind. So I feel fine, I

1:57 feel more. I feel fine. How are you? Oh? Sorry, everything's good down here? How are you? How are you? You didn't like to like the cars? Yeah? For they were. Let's say it's funny when we get into these three episode ones, because I was thinking the Star Trek episode good, Proudlyn, good bag his rival fine, which is a lot to keep track of. I will say interesting, Yeah, our opinions might not necessarily agree on this episode. Oh fabulous, fabulous, I love that. Are we gonna argue? No, No, I mean yes, I mean no, we won't. We're gonna angrily not argue. Yeah.

2:47 Speaking of angrily not arguing something that critics like to do. It published their reviews. This is just a clocky seguay, but I don't really care going into the premisey for these episodes for people that are playing the Trek Wars Home game. Here is Judy Crosby for her syndicated column TV Scout Publishing for her review of Obsession, aired December fifteenth, nineteen sixty seven. Of Course, directed by Ralph Sanetski and writer Arn't Wallace, Judy Crosby writes obsession. This episode is one of the highlights on television Tonight. Stephen Brooks stars in his first TV roles since leaving his regular role on the FBI series, playing the son of Captain Kirk's first captain. His father was killed by a strange cloudlike creature, which also killed the entire crew that Captain Starship except for Kirk.

3:45 When the cloud creature shows itself again eighteen years later, Kirk becomes obsessed with the killer creature, which lives on red corpuscles and now threatens all the lives support the enterprise except for mister Spokhu's blood is green. Oh yeah, boy, and no reason why? Well yeah, his blood cos just so everybody knows our blood is our blood is iron iron based? Is that a copper based? Interesting? Uh? I love that you're finding this. I'll do the Ewoks the two here? Uh so specifically the both were directed by Dale Shott, and then Bob Corow wrote to the prow Beaten segment and Linda Wolverton wrote Baga's rival. Uh So I had found this. The description on the description on IMDb only gives one so I'll just read that out and then I'll just do a great shot job of describing the other one. So wicked tea boat, Nissa and Latara go for a canoe trip which ends in a crash, the prow carving goes missing, and the searching ewoks land and the hands of the do locks and ah, and then in Baga's rival in this one, the Baga, who's their lovely little horse type friendo is supplanted in love and affection by this new fancy looking horse creature which is the name Silky,

5:23 and poor Boga just can't seem to match up to him. But it turns out Silky is this side to evil sidekick of j Druthy Enchantress, and she, like most people, is also trying to get the sun Star, so she, just like another witch bitch, abducts Nissa and then tries to get the sun Star back from Chief Chirp. But and then still the kids saved the day, while a Chief Chirpa and the folks come in like, oh, we're just a little too late. You already saved her anyway, And and Baga he's the hero because he's always the hero, and feel deeply upset when sweet sweet baby animals and sweet baby children and also adults are treated poorly and feel left out and said, oh god, it's just like hurts really bad. Anyway, thank you. It's no surprise that Linda Wolverton, along with expanding on asthma's previous research, were gone with the Mimps, which is Linda Wolverton's other e wox episode, then went on to write the extremely devastating Homeward Bound the Incredible Journey, which we have talked about. That the fact that she did that and it is now making sense to me. The idea of watching animals emotionally suffer is so hard for me. Yes, I cannot manage it, very weird as an adult man that washed Homeward Bound The

6:55 Incredible Journey for the first time in September, the first time as an adult in September, and openly wept five times. I agree with you, it's too much, but like the absolute fear, like I yeah, And I think I mentioned this story when I watched it when I was a young child. I had just gotten a kitten and I was inconsolable. I couldnot describe what was going on for me because I like couldn't even put into words. I couldn't stop crying, and every like teacher in the after school program was just like, what the fuck is wrong with this kid? And I was I was like having a meltdown because I was terrified my kitten was going to get lost and I just couldn't even bear bear it. Oh So anyway, thanks Linda for making me feel this way about Baga. It's a pretty good episode. I just I think I was like, oh, can we do some quality control and like not repeating the exact same storyline as the last one.

7:50 That's all that got me on it. So it's not the exact thing, it's just a very it's the it's just a very similar concept of this this battie, this bad witch is trying to get the sun Star. Let's abduct a Nissa. It's like almost exact and I mean motives of some wicked villain attempting to steal the SunStar. It's definitely a repeating motif in the Eoks TV series. However, I think you're right. I it literally in the last episode. That's I think what got me about it is I was like, put it at least like a couple of episodes away, so I'm like, not immediately thinking about and maybe that's being too tough on it, because like, once again we had a sweet ass Jay Drew thean Chancerosus loved her.

8:37 She was a cat, which rocked loved it. I love a I love a cat, and I love a witch bitch. I've made this very clear. So to combine the two incredible. This is my dream. This is going to be the first eleven ranked episode. Except I don't like it repeating storyline. I don't like Nissa being abducted. I fucking again, she's too capable and it's annoying the shit out of me, and she just feels very lazy, abject flatara, object tibo, object wicket. He doesn't have to be a little hero. He's fucking fine. He's whatever. Anyway.

9:18 Also, I liked the Star Trek episode. I didn't. There's that pods that I did not like. There's parts of it I did like. No, I did like it. Did you not like it? Did you like it? Is this what we're disagreeing? Yeah? Well, Also we haven't even talked about prowb Beaten that much. Oh sorry, I like as well. I liked probably in a lot. Yeah, I like Prowbeaten as well good apps. I think the Elocks episodes were quite strong this week. I don't know what it was. I was just very much biting with these and I feel like our episode of Star Trek this week for me is the most forgettable episode of Star Trek because I consistently forget that it exists. That's funny, I guess my Yeah. I as I was watching, I was like, this is a real like mid level episode. I think what I was, I think I am interested, you know, you know what it is.

10:09 There's a difference between is this a good episode of bad episode or is this an interesting round interesting episode and is this the kind of episode where I found a lot of interesting themes that I want to talk about on our podcast. And it was one that, unlike some I felt like it was very like theme inspired. There's a lot that I wanted to I want to talk about, And so maybe that's what I mean is I'm like, ah, because it may be annoyed in a lot of different ways, and sometimes that's very inspired. I think my consternation for this episode because you are correct, it is a very mid episode. All of the things in this episode have been done elsewhere on Star Trek. Better like what name them? Name them?

10:54 This is clearly a Captain Ahab story because they already had their perfect Captain Ahb story with a doomsday machine. Hmm h Yeah. And also yeah, behind the scenes, as we talked about in our Doomsday Machine episodes, they very much viewed that episode more as a this is a metaphor for nuclear armament as opposed to what the text is actually saying, which is it's an Ahab story. You know, it's also an Ahab story, and it explicitly says it wrath of kan. Yeah. The Ahab of course being con in that one. Yes, uh Ahab will become is a little bit of a running motif through the strongest well in Doomsday Machine. Wrath of con this episode in another Star Trek movie. Okay, you know I have I'll just get into it and I don't. I'm not like defending it because it's great or anything, but I think, what's more interesting about this one than like a typical just like? Ah, Okay, so I've never read Mobile Dick? What no have you? No? You read Moby Dick? Okay? Uh?

12:11 Pretty classic though, but remind me why is he so obsessed with finding this white whale? What what happened? It got his leg right, So it's very personal. Yeah, sure, why not. And it's it's it's the white whale. It's the thing to defeat. I think what is different about this episode that gives it a leg up is it's not about well, it's a white cloud instead of a white whale. Thank you. Uh, that's all you're you got it, okay, thank you. Uh. It's about shame, not revenge. Like at its core, the revenge is built off of shame because this cloud killed this whole crew, and he blames himself for hesitating. Kirk does, and he's got he's got true survivor's guilt over it.

13:24 And I think that what the episode does actually really well is then introducing the son of the captain who died as part of that that ship Farragut and seeing that same that same shame in my classic favorite, my favorite theme of intergenerational trauma, that shame be transferred to him, which is often what we do as people, Like if we're experiencing a shame about something that you know, came down on us from wherever, we then translate that shame to younger generations. And so that's what it is and then watching people kind of heal in real time, although while they're healing, they're also getting so many people killed. So cool that you're healing could come with a lot of devastation, which is where it feels really bad. But I think that is a little bit of why it is appealing to me because as much as it and also I like seeing Kirk fuck up, I think the idea of like, what does it mean to make mistakes? I think it that is actually very fascinating for me. Yes, I it rankles me a little bit that his mistakes seems so strong so quickly out the gate. Yeah, it's messy. It is a messy episode. I think there is a cleaner episode in here.

14:48 And not only do I think that the crew thought that as well. Who huh who wow? And reading these are the pointages season two by Mark Cushman. Oh really tell me, I know, make no mistakes so much. My analysis is cribbed, well, my facts are cribbed from these are the voyages. My analysis comes from that little noggin. That's all me, that's all you tell you, baby. I love it. Ralph Sinansky talks the director of this episode talks about the silly moment where the cloud, which look, I love Star Trek. We've established this. I'm the Star Trek contingent of this podcast. I think there is something inherently funny too, just wisps of smoke being the villain very difficult. And then there's the moment where the Smoke Monster gets into Garevik's quarters. Spock rushes Garavic out and then and then attempt to stop the cloud with his hands. It was so stupid. That's it. That's to steal a phrase that will be used later. That's the character's not firing in all Thrusters. It's It's a great character moment because Spock

16:18 will one hundred percent always protect officers below him and the rest of the crew. But it does look absurd, yes, and I think it's very funny because they've had absurd creatures before, they've had the pizza rug. But they've taken it very seriously and it made sense thematically. And I guess if you're going to have a cloud, at least really lean into the real like like fear of that, right, Like, Okay, it's a cloud, so how do we fucking defeat that? It feels very silly to think that you could ever, like what the whole thing of the shape of what it's based off of is, Like Kirk couldn't stop didn't stop it in time, right, But it's like, what's firing into cloud gonna do? Which is what I immediately thought to start, Like I was just like, you know, this isn't gonna work, right, Like I don't know, it's just being weird about Yeah, it's a cloud. So it does feel like people aren't playing to the top of their intelligence. I mean they're not being written to the top of their intelligence, just like The Deadly Years last week. Yeah, sorry, I delete, I delete media. So I'm trying to remember.

17:33 Remember, as soon as our characters got infected with radiation sickness and started getting older faster, Yeah, all of our characters got dumb. And this is the thing where when media stops functioning, well, right, well, sure, let's not get stuck into the samantic argument, Kenny. Whenever media doesn't work for me, it's probably sacrificing character in favor of plot, and suddenly the same characters are making decisions that feel stupid, Which is fine for your character to make a stupid choice, but it has to feel grounded in something that is believable, and I feel like some boneheaded decisions are made because the plot needs to move a certain way. And what's interesting is that I think the back half of this episode feels a lot stronger than the first half of the episode, probably just because Kirk just becomes so agro right out the gate, which is so atypical even in extremely high pressure situations like the colony in Operation Annihilate, where his brother and his sister in law and his nephew, that entire colony's getting attacked by flying eggs. His first officer is getting common deer, and I feel like Kirk has an even more love ahead.

19:00 I supposed to use a cloud and he just freaks out because that's what the episode needs him to do. Yeah, he's holding the idiot ball, which is what we call it. That's what's happening. Who is we? Joel and I? And who is Joel? Yeahs, sweet sweet partner that I and didn't like anything. I think I was giving the show maybe more credit than it was worth it. That's because you're a good person, and I watch things in bad fate because I want to win. Yeah, it's funny because in this way you want this to lose, which I would think you'd want it to win, given that it is your star Trek. You're correct, right, is a binary one of these things must be the victor just to win. I think I I took it as if Kirk is behaving so uncharacteristically, this much must be something so horrific, you know what I mean.

20:07 But you're right, I don't, despite despite it actually being something I think very intense. And again, and coming back to that concept of shame, I maybe if it were any other character, I would have expected it, you know, because like that's how I behave Probably I just be like this thing that has been gnawing him me for years that I've never emotionally dealt with and never saw it there before. I'm having a literal trauma reaction to it, and I am unable to manage my emotions and I'm going purely into fight mode. But that's just not really a thing that Kirk would do. So yeah, he does end up being a little out of character. What could have been maybe a cooler episode was maybe someone else like having that reaction, like someone like a McCoy for instance, who is deeply emotional and very much like I don't know, and maybe McCoy's the wrong person, or like you know, like a Scottie and like trying to take over the vessel or something, or like a secondary character or like this son, the son of the of the of the Former of the Dead Captain. I don't know, something like that. I don't know, a crazy commodore who had their ships sacrificed to just for stealing a phrase, like a doomsday machine, just like this cloud. Yeah, this has already happened. You're right, it was better. See you're not the only one that is making that comparison. Our favorite person, Dorothy Fontana in one of her many memos behind the scenes of

21:40 Star Trek. Right, I find I agree with many of the producer's comments on this script, but I am not quite as disturbed about it as he is in talking about trying to fine tune it. Kirk's obsession with getting this creature is much like commodore Deckers in the Doomsday Machine, and regarding the teaser in general, I see touches of the man trap in it, and the creature has described so far may have a tendency to look like the creature in Metamorphoses. Yeah, yeah, which exactly. That was another thing I was thinking. I was like, ah, I've got another cloud. We're gonna talk to a cloud again? Is it going to be another lady? Yeah?

22:22 And I feel like as mid as that episode is as well, I feel like it's using the notion of qlunkily, it's attempting to analyze the notion of can you love something whenever it does not look human? Get me up bright? Sure, Yeah, that's the proper reaction. But the cloud here is yeah, which is a cost saving measure because they don't have to build a monster or a ship or anything. You just kind of have to vaguely make They have to get like some dry eyes and just kind of usher it into what is very much a bottle episode, except they you know, they do go down to the planet, but it's a pretty existing set. You know what I did like about it because the fact that it was got Kirk, Spock and McCoy in it. Yeah, it's good. It's got all my my fave boyfriends. You've thoroughly convinced me that it's not great. I think I had a little bit of faith in it, despite being annoyed by some pieces, But I liked the connection between Kirk and this end sign I did like, I liked what they were doing emotionally a lot. Yeah, Because, as I've said already, I like the idea of exploring what it means to pass on our trauma to new generations. And I like the idea of having having the opportunity to forgive yourself, and through that self forgiveness and

23:59 through that to then be able to forgive and support these other generations too, right, Like, I find that to be very compelling and beautiful. It does not make up for a mid episode, which is where I'm with you, because I think the second half of this episode is much stronger than the first half, where the characters are behaving more in character. Yeah, the fabulous conversation of Spock and McCoy talking about the Kirk, about the Kirk being unfit for command, and then going to confront the captain, and then the captain being like, you know what, I see your point. You're asking good questions and I appreciate it. And then from there he's kind of successfully talked down, which is actually pretty great. Yeah, And then Spock says, there's no way that facers would have made a difference. Your fault.

25:00 It's not your fault, and then Kirk is able to pass that knowledge on to Garavic. Yeah, I'll tell you what I don't like. I don't like the moment that Kirk or They're like, yeah, this this cloud, it actually stopped and fought us and like fought back, which proves that it actually has it's it's sentient and it is going back to the spawn. So we need to defeat it because it will kill people. In that moment, McCoy was like, you're right. I'm sorry, and I'm like, no, McCoy, you were right, Like you were right, my dude, like why you have vaccines that need to go get to the other place, which I wrote of the planet you know what the fault a little like is so funny. Again, I feel like I've been relating to Oh well, I feel like I've been relating this a lot to a lot of stuff for Last Jedi lately. It's actually my biggest frustration. It's my only first station with Last Jedi. My only frustration with Last Jedi is that PO fucks up bad and in military situations, as we have seen people fuck up right, like people with a lot of power, with a lot of people in their power fuck up and those people die, and like that's just like not something that in regular life is obviously tolerated, but like here it is in these military situations always being tolerated. I'm like, well, like, okay, so I think we see this a lot, but in last Jedi it's fuck,

26:32 it's bad, right, and he should have been like properly, properly like uh, he sort of should have seen proper consequences to it, and he does. And in fact, again, my only gripe is at the end it's like Leah and uh holdo or like I like them, I'm just like, okay, again, only gripe. No one come for me. That that's my only gripe come for me for other things? Why am I saying this? Oh? I just feel like I do need there to be consequences for things sometimes, Like I do need there to be consequences for these weird decisions and for people to be held responsible and just be like you because perfection is not ever going to happen, right, But also like there are yeah, I don't know, it just gets a little too much into like authoritarian like police force shit to me that it's like, oh, the cop made a mistake. So he's not gonna be like, uh, penalized, what sort I'm looking for. He's not gonna like, he's not gonna cottish, he's not gonna be punished for He's just like, oh, he's gonna be on paid leave for a month for shooting a black man, you know.

27:48 And it's just like sometimes you do, so it gets a little squishy for me. I'm like, I don't like that, which is funny because in Ewoks they also fuck up bad presumably, and they also don't really face many consequences and punishments for it, which I was like, how fascinating that we were like playing around with this right now in two different episodes, because it's weird, it's funny. I did like prowbeating a lot. I don't know what it was, but I just really enjoyed these two episodes of the Yo. Yeah again, I thought the second one was really good. I just got annoyed by the second one was devastating setting I hope I don't mean that in the hyperbolic sense, however, every time that Baga felt sad, oh my heart breaks, because I just I cannot deal with animals suffering at all. Yeah, it hurt, Like shit, I couldn't handle it.

29:00 But I to connect to your previous point, I believe you're talking about the fact that are four mains lose the prow uh low grays canoe, yes, no, Churpis canoe canoe of turpis canoe and then are able to basically have the status quo reset by getting a new prow the trip I was going to provide anyways, because we've got a festival. We got the fishing festival. Yeah. So yeah, they they are supposed to be taking care of this boat or just be cleaning it, and then they lose the this like beautifully carved prow. So the first time, I was like, are they ever actually in trouble internally and not from like an external force that they like have to hide this from these adults and like the consequences could be dire from like a community perspective, I was like, Wow, that's wild. So yeah, I it's it's interesting. And they they do end up getting like because they ultimately destroyed the ship of the Good. Sorry, you know, it just happened to me, Kenny. I just realized that I was just making bread and I forgot to put honey in the dough and now I'm distracting.

30:25 That's the whole point of making a hola is that it's sweet. So if there's no honey in your bread, do you need to go put? I can't, So you're just gonna make some delicious bread. I guess I'll just make bread that isn't actually hollow, or I'll just go buy a hola. All of that for nothing, I don't know what. How like you were saying something and then I was like, there's usually that's usually a sweet bread. And I was like, why is there no sugar in that recipe? And I was like, there sure was. You just fucked up. Speaking of fucking up, and I think you need to suffer some consequences. I should. I should be punished for fucking up my bread. You know what?

31:08 This is what makes a podcast good is when you're in the middle of having a good conversation about ewoks and then you realize you made your bread wrong. Look, so two do Wicket and the three other heroes realized they shouldn't have commandeered Chirpa's canoe for a little joy ride. He was have you forgotten rafting? No? But I would love to go rafting. Oh my gosh, I do hate being outside, but I love being on the water. Yeah, oh yeah. I raffed a lot, or I used to raft. I raffed whenever I am able to. I took an entire trip down the Colorado River with my father Jeff Webster. Jeff Webster and I have you know, we've done like inflatable kayaks through pretty heavy whitewater and stuff, and I'm like, it's and I just was thinking I would be so fucking scared to take a wooden canoe down a river. That is actually fun. Fact Powell so who was the one who led expeditions down the Colorado River through the Grand Canyon, so I kind of literally he and his steam took boats down through the entirety of it to kind of explore the rapids. They did it in these wooden boats, which is just wild today wild because you're gonna smash right into a goddamn rock, You're gonna like break apart. So they had to like poort, like to like poort the boats a lot, like around

32:39 very very big rapids where they literally have to take the boats out and walk them around to like the other side of like to the end of the rapid. But that's what I was thinking of watching this is I was just like dude wood in a wooden canoe in rivers with rapids, you're gonna hit them on a rock. And sure enough, everybody hit rocks in rockhetting. You know who didn't hit rocks in pro Beaten though. Two our new friends, the Schebes love them, which on exterior looking, which is all looking, are Beaver's that water ski That's exactly what I wrote here, beavers that waterski for folk said, don't actually watch these episodes, which and they're just listening, just picture beaver. Then it's also water skiing. They but like their feet are skis, Like they don't have separate water skis. Their feet are skis, and they're propelling themselves along somehow, somehow. I'll just imagine the force maybe like they're little tails, but we just can't see them because they're going so fat. Yeah, the force is better, and that's more in universe. So it is more in universe. Let's say that scapes are probably the most medichlorian rich animals. Can you imagine the most force sensitive are the Schemes and George Lucas just like Schemes scopes have uh Midi Chlorian counts that are so much higher than master Yoda. It is so funny to me you said

34:15 the force, and because Ewoks sometimes feels so separated from the Star Wars universe, I was like, the force of what the force? The oh remember that thing, my thing? The force? The force? What is that it surrounds us, binds us, penetrates us, yanks all living things. Okay, Really, medichlorians is like mitochondria, the powerhouse of the cell. Oh, so too are medichlorians so too? And so the more mediclorians you have, the more for sensitive you are got it great and only for sensitive people could become Jedi. Yes nah ah not uh uh not true, sister, not gound it, not gonna do it? Not true anymore? Loving it It's not true? Do you see that? You saw that? Right?

35:12 That? Like, I don't know who said it officially, It might have been it might have been our our buddy Dave Filoni, because there was pushback on the whole Sabine being uh trained thing. Like I even at first was just like can Sabine be trained? And then I kind of like that. I came back and I was like, what the fuck am I talking about. I'm the one who's like very pro that, like anyone can like engage with the Force and like anyone could be a Jedi kind of why the freaking end of Last Jedi Rips and the reason that Ray is so good at this stuff is because, yeah, which is the best reason. So what's so? I think it was Dave Filony. He was just like, yeah, anyone could be trained in the Force because everyone, and I was just like, fuck, yes, this is good. I'm glad we didn't like goat on that because like I am tired. I'm tired of this bullshit all this to say the schemes we should Yeah, and Tebo can speak their language, Yeah, I don't. I don't like filony Joe anning and giving extra textual explaining that anyone can. But we're not here to litigate. Well, I think he's just reinforcing blasted eyes. Point. Look, let's get down to brass tacks. When are you gonna start wearing a full on fedora?

36:32 Get it out of this. I added, I do like that little flippy hat thing, and I like flip it onto my head and I'm just like you never seen me, and Dave Filoni in the room at the same time. I can't say that I have Yeah, anyway, yeah it was, it's it's good, it's good. But those little those little e walks, they end up coming back and they're honest, They're like they uh uh they fuck over the de lox, which is very again Ugain. Latara gets in a good uh jab at the uh do lack wifey pooa erga erga and is like says her like bathing suit is tacky. But then she goes, but you wear it well, it's really really easy to shame someone. But I love that Latara turned it around. It's like it does it look tacky, but it looks good on you. And she doesn't mean it as a slight she means it genuinely. Yeah, it's nice. It's a nice, nice moment. It's a nice mode in the middle of a battle. Yeah.

37:39 But they come back and and Sherpa's just like, why would I potish you? And It's like, I mean, okay, again, I'm not looking for punishment. I'm just interested in this, Like, what what are the lessons we learn? Like just because we were like ultimately right, or we like do a brave thing? Does that mean we I don't know what am I I don't want to. I don't I'm not I'm not interested in that kind of culture. Ultimately, it is a show for babies, Okay, well Star Trek is it. Yeah, it's adult. It's an adult science fiction show where they fight clouds. Yeah, and no one's ever like Kirk, you got so many people fucking killed. They're like, oh, you were right, and it's just like, I mean, there was the episode Court Martial where he was on trial for court martial for he didn't do it eventually, Yeah, but he didn't do it like in this case it did it. He was very reckless. Yeah, he literally drove into a cloud.

38:45 It's a cloud. Of course, it's going to get into your vents system. And like, no one's ever like wow, Kirk, Like that was very uncharacteristic, So maybe we should like, is there I don't know. He cut to Aspen on a foggy morning and she takes or claymore out there. It starts and Joel is just like what are you doing? And You're like, ah, this fire out of here. I guess what I am saying is I have no interest in a punitive culture. An authoritarian system. But I do have interest in like, especially if you are occupying these like spaces of like power and authoritarian power, Like what does it look like to be held accountable? Perhaps Tirpa is taking into account the fact that it's clear that when Wicket, Nissa and Tebow and Latara are confessing, it's very clear that they feel a great deal of shame. And Tirpa, being the warm, knowledgeable, thoughtful leader that he is, he's able to recognize that there will be no greater punishment than the shame that these four feel. Okay, that sounds terrible to me because now they're stuck with shame and there's nowhere to put that shame. But he is absolving them by saying, would you just put this prow on there? And just being like water under the bridge.

40:08 Okay, Sometimes you just have to learn how to manage your own shame sometimes, But then sometimes that shame just gets passed along to the next son of a dead captain, you know, you know what I mean, not everybody. He's gonna have a Spock and a McCoy them down. Subsequent encin Garovics, But there are no subsequent encin Garaviks because oddly enough, you kind of see ensen Gerovic again and Start took Prodigy really little a little bit really when in the second half of season one, whenever they go to the tribute to tos Planet the shuttlecraft, you hear the final logs of ensen Gerovic all which is pretty cool. Oh yeah, and Prodigy or start really not in lower decks, not in lower deck Prodigy fun that it is fun. That's a fun that's a good show. Not as good as you. Oh my god, stop it stop no, let's glea. I love them so much, bad baby baby's anyway, do we like the soundboard? I like the soundboard sounds like you. Oh my god. Yeah. We can just keep

41:45 adding ridiculous sound effects to it. Great job. If you want me to ask some sound effects to the soundboard, please send us a message on Instagram search trek wars pod or hop over to Blue Sky. Send us an email trek worse pot at gmail dot com. Let me know what sound do you want to hear on the soundbourn You're funny. Someone's just gonna be like POAs. I'll do it poodas or maybe one of Boga's noises. Oh Bogas. Speaking of Boca's noises so many sad Boga noises. Part of like, also what makes that episode so hard to watch is uh he it like is trying so hard and everyone's being such a shit to him, Like he tries to like carry a basket that's too heavy for him, and instead of like the uh e wok mom being like oh gosh, that must have been so much, He's just like my basket and I'm like, oh, it's show yeah, I forgot to show do showdy does that? I was just like, show do excuse me? I'm like, oh my god. Nissa literally lets that like terrible changeling Sulky come into her home and sleep inside of her home on her soft bed, and Bogu has to sleep outside and like a love Oh it looks so devastated I was. I was enraged. I was like filled with so much discomfort. I don't like it. So another one, another situation of just like what is an appropriate like response? Because it's like Nissa's like, I'm so sorry I did that, and I'm like is that

43:16 enough? Is that enough to just be like I'm so sorry that I like hurt you so bad? What would they have done if silk had like not been like the familiar of a witch bitch? What would they have done that? That is a quibble that I have with the episode because obviously has a rival in Selke the Kwarf k Soilke is a kwarf, the Karf is Silky great mmm, and Silk just seems a little bit too good to be true. Guess what. Silk is secretly a dragon the whole time and becomes an ugly little dragon. And I kind of wished that Silk had not been pretending to be that gorge but instead was just gorge the entire time, just also happened to be a little jerk and a little stinker, because sometimes hotties are jerks. Yep, sometimes hotties are jerks like me. Sometimes I'm a jerk because I'm what a hotty. Finally we're getting we're getting this. You have been so mean to me off microphone. It's hotties do no? Oh?

44:29 Is that true? Do you want me to show my true colors on Mike? Yeah? Just like when Silky's showed its weird true colors tobog at the beginning when it went but I was like, oh my god, no one's gonna believe me. He didn't say that he doesn't talk, but you could tell. Uh. This also reminded me of the stuff in the Star Wars Holiday special documentary and Disturbance in the Forest, talking about the fact that Lucas had floated starting off Star Wars with the Wookie family and all of this nonverbal storytelling, and the fact that our central character in this one is Boga Boga, And I think it's one of the stronger episodes because of that, even though it is pulling lots of tropes, but I think the writing is there, the execution is there. Yes, it's a great episode about trying to let people as they are and not necessarily abandon something whenever something bright and shiny comes along. Yeah, that is you're right. That is like what it is, And you're right. It's about babies for babies. They're babies, they're kids, and them doing that. Yeah, I'm not saying that like anybody needs to face consequences. And I think Boga easily forgiving Nisa is like a testament to his sweet nature and his kindness and his trust that sometimes we mess up. And what I'm just saying, Kenny, is what's the degree to which we mess up where really we've messed up because I was very upset,

46:07 Like it seems like the commonality with these with all three of these things is the fact that you wish that everyone had consequences. I want them all to go to jail. Where everyone in these episodes dealing with some variation of shame, whether it's a shame of a failed job, the shame of doing something that you weren't supposed to, or the shame of in Boga's case, the shame of not being able to do better than you are. Yeah, like just a shame of not being enough. Yeah. By the way, I want to be very clear that there's a difference between me jokingly going on and on about consequences between a captain of a ship and children. Just want to be very clear. You think that captains should not face consequences because they're trained professionals, never and kids should face consequences because they don't know better because they're dummies. Look, I face consequences. Look how I turned out constantly?

47:01 Can you not yell at me? And just for the record, that's the opposite of what I'm saying, Just in case people don't know. Sorry, Chasm and irony. Yeah, but I don't know. I'm just looking for connection. I'm looking for someone to be mad about. I mean, I hadn't really connected any of the thematic lines through these episodes. I think your strong thesis that shame runs through all these things quite powerfully. Yes, And then also just looking about how these properties treat shame, and even though Kirk is acting way out of character, it's whenever the shame becomes prevalent, it then becomes a community issue where they are trying to absolve Kirk of his guilt while also to minimize the consequences that Kirk is inflicting upon the crew due to his obsession. We're trying to fight the clap. Yeah, I'm going to the found family trope that asks in love so well, And then in regards to shame, perhaps and at least prow beaten, it becomes an individual thing that our characters cope with because Kirk isn't necessarily aware that he's well,

48:37 he is ashamed, but he's not necessarily he's so emotionally involved, it's not necessarily cognizant of the problems that shame is inflicting, and so then it becomes you know, ashue. But with prowbeaten, it becomes an issue of individual awareness and becoming aware and realizing that you need to overcome them. And then once you personally admit your shortcomings, then it can become a community issue. Yeah, yeah, you know what, I'm gonna pop in and I'm gonna shift it all on its head. It is about in all three. It is about if we are functioning alone in our shame, we will be consumed by it and in that communal assistance and support and love. Like he has two best friends and they're they're acting in the interest of a ship, of course, but they also and the people that need this medicine and everything else, but they are also acting in the interest of someone they love dearly.

49:42 And to your point, Chief Taba loves these kids and wants to help, like to spell them of the shame and support them and move forward. And you know, too well, we can just assume that Bia is such a good sweet baby that he's like, hey, I don't want you to carry the shame with you. Sometimes we mess up, and all in the fact that you have said to me that you are sorry, that's enough and let's move forward. So truly they are all stories about how if we remain isolated in our shame, we can it's very hard for us to break out of it, and it is through connection and love and community that we're able to move past it. Even in Baga's Rival, where Bacha is just down in the pit so ashamed because just like you said, though I forget the clean phrasing that you use, but he just doesn't feel good enough. Whenever Nissa is kidnapped by Jo Drew the Enchantress, well specifically by Silky the Quarf, and then imprisoned by Jo Drew the Enchantress Ja Drew, J Drew, J Drew. That's it J Drew, J Drew, J ju. The chances spelled like Ja Drew, but it's pronounced J Drew. Thank you. Boga charges into help without any thinking of this will better my station in life.

51:07 Perhaps shame has overcome through service. Shame is overcome just like you said, through community. It's a you know, I've like literally turned around and like the way I started with all of these, like I'm just I'm like, actually, you know what, Despite this being very similar to the story that just came before, the fact that Nissa is abducted makes a lot more narrative and like sense from like an emotional relationship perspective in this one, like obviously everybody wants to like everybody loves Nissa, but in this specific case, Boga loves Nissa. Yeah, true beauty and the beast in Lancas Yes, yeah he and so he is a hero and when it really came down to it, his sweet Nissa was taken, not just anyone, his Nisa. So I will complain less about it. Oh my gosh, Wow, Kenny, this is hilarious. You turned me around on the Star Trek episode. I now like it less, and I now like the U Wok episodes more.

52:12 So. You did it. I made Star Wars win wonderful upstanding. I like what you did. Cool. Do you want to play a little game A long time ago start date? This week? I quoted a boat, I dated a geek, but none of them could warp mine drive into hyper space. The best of both worlds kept me in the second place. Captain's log on a Halla Kron I wanted a song. I penned a song.

52:54 Seventeen more minutes subviies in Super High Def aboard the USS Enterprise DT. Don't you take my walk lighter and clip it. Don't you take my red schord, buddy and nip it if you spill the tea, I'm gonna sip it. A starship it Wow. The answer to your question is yes, I would love to play a game. Clearly, clearly sweet. Okay, So we are ranking. We are providing our favorite ships of the stars or vehicles as the case may be, with where we currently are with e walks, and then also have a favorite romantic ships or relationships. So what do you think? What are you thinking? Kenny? I'll go first. Yeah, I'm choosing Trump his canoe. Baby, It's a really good canoe. That's super that's super good. I love it. A good vehicle. Yeah, I love boats, love boats. My SIMP for boats, SIMP for boats.

54:12 Yeah, uh love it. The prow is gorgeous and then not only whenever they lose the prow. Just make no mistake. I'd never heard the phrase prowl before watching this episode. No, because even though I am a SIMP for boats, I'm barely ever around boats. I love the canoe. It's great. Well you know what's funny? No, I don't please answer? What is comedy? Uh? Since ships starships are basically just boats of the sky. You know kind there's skyboats, there's skyboats. You've seen Treasure Planet, right, Yeah, that's that's basically the concept. They're in space, so it's like treasure treasure island, but it's the whole planet is one big treasure. I love it. I love that movie so much. I love it. It's perfect. Everyone's a hater. Are you a hater?

55:10 You're hating it? Remember, even though I've seen that movie within recent history, i'd have to go to my letter box to see what I said. Oh my god, it's it's fabulous. Uh. It's got the goo Goo dolls in it, singing a song that makes me cry every time I watch it. So it makes sense that like, yeah, a boat would also be another boat would be a good case here, which so either for that, but I guess Star Trek you know what it is. I'm going to go for my my vehicle, my my ship. Since we've obviously there are no real ships in this one. I'm going to go for the white whale cloud cloud got it. Presumably it is a ship for itself because it can move through space really fast. It can so, which then makes their problem of trapping the cloud inside of event and just kind of flushing it out.

56:09 Kind of a problem. It's it's the more the more we talk about it, the more stupid it becomes. Like it just doesn't make anything. It's a Midt, it's a mid Et, and it just in three weeks, I will forget that this episode exists yet again. Cool cool, cool, cool cool cool cool. Uh yeah. Well, also there is a point too where they're going so fast to chase it, and Scotty's like, if we keep this up, we'll blow up. And I'm like that sounds like a real threat, like they are not going to be able to sustain this, and then Kirk literally has them go faster and then nothing bad happens.

56:50 So I was just like, I don't think that's how this works. I think if the chief engineer says you're about to blow up, you'll blow up. Yeah. But anyway, I don't fault the cloud for being a cool vehicle, a cool ship in its own right. Sweet. Okay, what about Tim ship ships? What about Tim six ships? I'm gonna ship Garavic and Chapel. Interesting he called her Christine, and I couldn't tell if I was like okay with that or not I was like, are you respect are you not respecting authority? Or are you just close to her? Uh? And here's why, because whenever I'm feeling shame, whenever I'm feeling sad, I want a girl in a nurse mini skirt to be like doctors orders, you have to eat, and I'd just be like, no, no, I hate I hate myself. I hate myself towards travel is just like you don't understand presents a fake set of orders, and then it's like you simpleton, you up, you child, these are the doctor's orders. If you do not comply, you will be in violation of Starfleet regulation. So eat that soup, you little bad boy, A little bad boy. Yeah, she's a so I it's a real good like Kink unlocked here. I liked

58:28 how forceful she was with them. I'm with you, it's a good one. What is interesting is that Chapel was originally not in the script, but roden Berry was like, put a chapel scene in there, put a chapel on there. And also originally Garrevic was supposed to be check off interesting, which I think is better, but then roden Berry was like, nah, you go with Garavic Okay. I think that would have been a lot stronger if it was check Off or anyone else in the crew. I think so too, Like, I mean, pulling into a random dube we'd never seen before is fine, but it's not incredibly emotionally compelling. No, imagine if it was Zulu. Yeah, Like I think Chekhov would work because of his age. Yeah, and the whole point being that, it's like, it does make more sense with Chekhov because he's so young. But I just want to look, Chekhov's got gotten a lot to do this season compared to right, literally anyone else except for R three. Yeah, could have been a horror. Should have been a horror. It's always a horror. She should get so much more to do all the fucking time. My ship is uh, the is you know what? You know who it is? It's fucking erga. Here we go the uh the dou Lac King was his name again?

59:50 Gorniche? Gorniche? Have they been named as a ship before. I'm looking at the spreadsheet. I'm not seeing anything on the spreadsheet, Okay, because listen, I'm not I'm not. I'm not a proponent, which is crazy because I feel like we would have should be, but I'm not seeing it on the spreadsheet. Here's here's the thing about them. Whatever they seem to have seems to work for them. Yeah, he wants to make her happy. She wants to be happy. She likes his power, he likes her tacky bathing suit. I'm into it. A dynamic is good for them, for them, it's great. He's got a battle boat, a battleship, and it's her boatsy Wotzi, and I fucking love that. Interesting that you picked the cloud versus their boty Wotzy. I know I thought about that, but you didn't. Also want to know, but I didn't. I didn't. He destroyed their boatsy Wotzy with his own anger and need for revenge.

1:00:54 Wow, look at how that happens sometimes. Cool Well, speaking of anita for revenge, perhaps it is time for Asking to inflict some revenge of their own. By ranking. This week, we're getting to the central premise of this podcast, which is which is better Star Trekers is Star Wars, And once again the episodes are Obsession from Star Trek the original series versus Proud Beaten in Boga's rival from Star Wars Ewoks Aspen. I would love for you to go first. Yeah, this is so funny. This was not what I originally thought. And now after you've convinced me, I've now shifted.

1:01:35 I'm going to give Proud Beaten and Boga's Rival a seven point one. You do love to see it. I do love to see it. I do I like it. I'm gonna get this one to six point eight, pretty close, pretty close, pretty close. These are some strong apps this week. Yep, that comes to a cumulative total of six point nine to five, but it could still be anyone game. As we shift over to Obsession, Aspen five point eight, five point eight interesting, I'm gonna go five point nine. As I've said, I think the back half of this episode is far stronger than the beginning of this episode, but also this episode is largely forgettable in all the themes that are being tackled in this episode have been done better elsewhere within Star Trek, which means accumulative total of five point eight five per Obsession versus probably be in A Baga's Rival and a robust six point nine to five, which means, Aspen, put on your winner's ground because Star Wars wins the week, My winner's ground is a Dave Felony hat, just like flip it onto my head. Speaking of flipping it on the head, listeners are flipping out for our Patreon content. Oh my god, No,

1:03:09 that's good. That's good. Patreon dot com slash trek Wars Pod, where you can listen to early episodes extended episodes. This week our Patreon, we've tackled the Scott Pilgrim anime and a little bit about the Doctor Who's Special and the brand new Doctor. So, if you haven't signed up, already signed up Patreon dot com slash trek Wars Pod on YouTube could join the fine auspices of fine folks such as Heidi Rogers, Tim Bodissa, Thank you so much for a patronage. We also have Emily Brice Love, Kevin Miller, Thank you, Mark Vibbert, Ryan Hill, and lastly, but certainly not leastly, Jolty Partner. We love you. Oh looks like we've got like from Mark Vibber on our butt Talk with Kenny episode. Thank you so much.

1:03:59 We got four lines thanks from Mark. Thank you so much for liking stuff on our Patreon. We love you, body and if you want to communicate some of that love to us, elsewhere, send us an email truck Warspod dot gmail dot com. Uh, if you want to make it a little bit more public, hop over to our website truck warspod dot com. Click on the reviews tab. You will be directed to the podcast of your choice. Leave us for review, leave us a rating, or eager to hear any feedback from you, any suggestions. If you want to hear any sound effects in mixing in on the soundboard, let me know. I'll upload them. I'll put anything here you know within reason. Don't be racist or sexist me, don't just listen, don't be a piece of shit. Don't do it. You know better, you know better, You're better than that, and there will be consequences if not. And if you disagree with this approach to moderated free speech, why don't you just yell at us about it on social media on Instagram dot com or blue Sky both handles at track wars Pod Aspen. Anything else that we need to say, anything that you need to plug that is upcoming. No, I'm thinking what I'll do with the bread is I'll bake it anyway, and it won't be like a real hola, but at least it will still be bread. And I don't want to waste that flower, you know, so I think I'll bake it and then I'll just go buy a Holla. Well, Aspen, when I'm with you,

1:05:29 my heart is anything but holla. In fact, it's full, okay, fantastic because I love you so tremendously. I love you too. One more time. Oh, let's gleave audience. We love you. May the Force be with you and live along and prosper