Star Wars: Episode I - Phantom Menace vs. Patterns of Force

0:26 Welcome to the Trek Wars Podcast, the Internet's primary source for all of the things that are related to Star Trek, Star Wars, and everything in between. As we go through both franchises in chronological order to try and answer which one is best Star Trek or Star Wars. I am Kenny Madison at the Star Trek contingent with me as we're always as the co host with the moostis I the old friend Aspen. I can't do this bit with Michael looking at me. I feel like I have to not do this. It's me asked my webster. I'm the Star Wars contingent. He ruins my bait. But Michael certainly won't ruin the discussion. As today we have invited who I think he is known around our community as the Arbiter because he often comes in and just arbits. Please everyone, Welcome to the podcast. Michael, Joel, that's our audience for you. Wait, Michael, is your middle name Kuame?

1:37 That's right, my middle name is Kuame. I feel deeply weird about this. It's like when you know someone really, really well and then you find out that their middle name is Kuame and you didn't know. That's how I feel right now, it's like one of those things. Well, Michael, speaking of tainting pre existing systems. Today we are covering Star Wars episode one of the Menace nail it you oooh you sexy, I know, versus Patterns of Force. The Star Wars episode won the Phantom Menace of course, being from Star Wars, and Patterns of Force being from season two. Uh, Star Trek the original. We just have to be really clear. He has to do things like that because I would then talk for ten minutes about middle names. I'm not gonna you know, that's great. I'm not going to say anything else about it. I think my middle name is great.

2:27 I love that about my middle name in this way, in this fashion, Tody, that feels like exciting, and I'm happy to talk about my middle name a little bit more if whenever, however, we're ready to do it. Yeah, it's going to be on this podcast until right now, and so Kenny can find a way to segue again away from it to Kenny's taking notes right now speaking of segue. Patterns of Force was first aired February sixteenth, nineteen sixty eight. Director Vincent mcavidian, writer John Merrit Lucas presiding producer of the second half of season two of Star Trek, and the plot synopsis goes from an NBC press release. It's January nineteen, nineteen sixty eight.

3:07 Captain Kirk and mister Spock are captured on a warlike planet with a Nazi type regime while searching for a cultural observer from whom nothing had been heard for five years. In Patterns of Force on NBC Television Network Star Trek Color cast of Friday, February sixteenth, I would have just called it a Star Trek cast. Kirk and Spock are imprisoned and tortured by the regime which rules the planet Echos, and learned that their captors are bent on eliminating immigrants from the planet Xeon. Isaac, also a prisoner, helps them escape to the Xeon underground. Assisted by Daris and later by ineg They find John Gill, the missing observer, who was being used by a deputy Purier Melicon as a front for a wholesale extermination of the peaceful people. Is it a day? Okay?

3:54 Can I dive right in right away? No? I gotta do Star War. No, no, no, no, no no. We still got more preamble to do. That's fine, That's what I got, but I really appreciate it. I have to also introduce this Star Wars episode one, the Phantom Menace, if folks are not aware, released May nineteenth, nineteen ninety nine, which it had to be released or else. Do you remember. I was watching that behind the scenes Phantom Menace making making video and they were like, this will be released in May ninety nine or nothing, So that is it. Of course, it is written and directed by one George Lucas A tour two excuse me, are dismay as? Wow tour, I'm gonna I'm gonna do. I found another Roger Ebert you outstanding as And I think this is interesting because I read a little bit of his review last time about Revenge, Return of the Jedi. The new editions is what we're doing?

5:01 Oh yes, and he had like reflected because at the time it was like, we know that these new movies are to come, so I thought it'd be interesting what does he think of this new movie to come? So I'm going to read the first paragraph in the last paragraph because again I feel like it captures it. If it were the first Star Wars movie, the Phantom Menace would be hailed as a visionary breakthrough. But this is the fourth movie of the famous series, and we think we know the territory. Many of the early reviews have been blase, paying lip service to the visuals and wondering why the characters aren't better developed. How quickly do we grow accustomed to wonders? I am reminded of the Isaac Asimov story Nightfall, about the planet where the stars were visible only once in a thousand years. So awesome was the site that it drove men mad. We who can see the stars every night glance up casually at the cosmos, and then quickly down again, searching for a dairy queen. It's like one of the best first paragraphs I've ever read. So I'm gonna read the last paragraph now, which is as surely as Anakin skywalker points the way into a future of Star Wars. So does the Phantom Menace raise the curtain on this new freedom for filmmakers. And it's a lot of fun. The film has correctly given the PG rating. It's suitable for younger viewers. It doesn't depend on violence for its effects. As for the bad rap about the characters, Hey, I've seen space operas that put their emphasis on human personalities and relationships. They're called Star Trek movies.

6:21 Give me transparent underwater cities and vast hollows, and it's a reel spheares any day. I mean, can I say something now? Yes, you can say whatever you want to say. Here's what I'll say. It sounds like we did it. We nailed it. Roger Ebert nailed the whole thing well. Roderi Ebert also gazed with Nicholas Cage film knowing for stars that will never ever, that will never ever leave my brain. So I do want to say something really quick, please, Michael, Okay about the Star Trek thing. Yeah, the thing considering that the I never heard the synopsis until this moment, considering that the guy who was lost, John Gilles, was lost five years prior to this episode. Yes, that means that they have not gone where no man has gone before. They do that all the time, Michael, Michael, one week, They just Michael, they just want one week. They would just like went to a starfleet space station, a load of places all the time. It feels like, guys, it feels like that guy has gone where no man has gone before. They chimed more John Gill is pretty great. Yeah, yeah they okay, yeah, also saying that John gil has good ideas, that's great. Yeah, down, that's recorded. We have that forever. It's the other guy, Malacan. Well,

7:53 it is kind of wild. Five years Actually didn't register that either until you said that, Like, five years is not a lot of time. I mean, Hitler himself had the vastness of between like World War One to World War Two to build up that kind of populist frenzy. Five years anyway, speaking of the vastness infinity of time, I think it only fair to ask our arbiter here, what is your experience with both franchises? Did you grow up with Star Trek? Did you grow up with Star Wars? And what was your experience in watching Phantom Menace? Excellent questions all around, sir. What as an arbiter, I will say, hey, you are not just like the arbiter and arbor great town by the way, hope. Do you have any patreons there? Patreons? So big quick background obviously, so Star Wars was always the number one. I grew up on that. I am forty years old, so I was born in nineteen hundred and eighty three.

8:54 Years, and in that year the Year of Our Lord Revenge slash Return of the Jedi was released. So I hadn't seen any of them until what like eighty eight, eighty nine something like that. There was some replays of it and I was all in. I was all in by then and loved it. And then you know, when the special editions came out, that became like the real one for me, because I was what thirteen fourteen, and then I didn't get into Star Trek until here's a weird story about Star Trek. I started watching Star Trek Voyager on TNT Baby or TBS, TNN.

9:41 It was all right, cool? Is that true? I don't know. Were you there, Canny? You look like you upset? Yeah, you're watching it on because I remember that. I remember when Star Trek got migrated over to TNN and oh held over? Could I say that very right now? Yeah? I just know that it wouldn't be on TNT because it's a Warner Brothers property. I'm pretty sure that TNN and Spike TV were owned by Viacom. Oh, it might have been a Viacom. Maybe it was MTV. It wasn't. Is MTV owned by Viacom? Yes, Oh, so it must have been on MTV that I was watching it on MTV and then I was like in love with it. I would come home from college from university pop that on and watch Star Trek Warriors. I was like, what's all this other stuff? And I went back and started watching The Next Generation and DS nine. Yes, and that's it. Yes, I never watched the original series. Oh, I was standing, So I'm have you gotten around watching the original series? Is this this is the first time you've ever watched the original series? Michael? I don't of an episode? What a weird episode. It's great, it's great. I watched all the movies, so I know all the players, I know all of the backstory essentially.

11:07 But this was great because the movies obviously are nothing like the television series. Well, well here's what I mean. Here's what I mean. Uh chunking thirty five minutes into it, it just makes it like this very It's a time capsule obviously, and it's so interesting to watch. That was really my biggest takeaway when I was watching this, Like the first thing, I was like, oh, look at this like weird you know, uh, set very clearly like on sets in like a lot somewhere thing that was happening, So it was really fun to watch that. But then there were some moments of real like kind of cool, like beautiful like shots and stuff, So I was really fun. I thought it was really it was really interesting and different because to me, like TNG is like the State is like the metric that All Star Trek should be held against. So this was fun to go back and see this and see where some of it kind of Mars and stuff. So that is my background. I love this, I love this.

12:07 I love this. I want to hear more. I want to hear more. I just love tell you more. I just oh, I just this explains why you had so many notes because, like we've talked before about this that, yeah, when you're watching something, especially when we're watching Ewoks and we were watching Droids and watching original series, you start to watch a lot of it and it's like it teaches you how to watch it. So if you are used to it and you're like here I am, I've been like I know the vibes. I know like the way it's kind of flowing. Like I'll watch episodes that someone else might watch and be like oh god, and I'm like look at this work of art, like kind of like, look at what it's saying, and it's so it's just interesting to hear a first impression. No, totally, I agree with you because I've seen the any Star Wars property, aside from like a few of those like the eu Wok stuff, I've seen everything multiple times, all of it, the glow everything. This is the one thing I've never seen and I did feel that way. I watched it with like a sense of like a little bit more green. Awe. I was like, oh, this is cool or weird or silly or terrible, and I didn't I know that the Phantom Menace we'll talk about in a second is terrible, and so, uh, this was this was like a new surprise, which is great and I made me very happy to watch. Oh that's great. Can we talk about how skinny Spock is. Yeah, he's a real skinny boy. Yeah yeah. I

13:39 think the first thing that we should talk about is them shirtless. Oh yeah, thank you. Okay, so they're shirtless for the entirety of like the first act of this show episode and uh, first off shot shot, what are we gonna call him? Chat chat baby? Yeah, the Chat's chatster. The shaster, the shatter, what what a hotty? Will I get it? Thank you? Thank you so much? Like at first he like as the person pisses me off, but I just I tell Kenny, I'm like, oh my god, Michael, thank you so much for this. I feel like I'm telling him. The more I watch him, more attracted to him. My cats, he's a ten. Shatner creates the archetype for what a captain on TV is. Oh yeah, also, oh captain, my captain. Uh, it's just so hot. He's hot, Michael, get off, get off that desk, stop it, you're gonna fall.

14:37 Stop what He's like always like fuck, oh fuck that hood's a little bit. Spock's so great. It's like, Yo, this is a hotty to body. He's got red paint all over him back because let's keep it real. That's not a real scar, that's real blood. Can we do That's so that's all right, So we'll talk about his shirtlessness. Can we can we talk about like the production value of this in a minute? Yes? And also can I just tell you really, quicks, I don't know if you know this, but Kenny taught me this. Sorry, Kenny's just like I'm trying to I'm trying to give to you the gifts, the gifts Kenny has given me. It's very interesting that this episode it's about Nazis literal Nazis.

15:20 Yeah, tell me for I write on this, Kenny. Both Shatner and Nimoy are Jewish, yes, and Shatner is from Canada, but both of them are Jewish, which I think is it is very interesting to have this sort of like like Shatner as a Jewish man and like being this like he is like the archetype of like what is beautiful and fabulous but coded as like a red lighted American man. He is a Jewish Canadian man. Then we have ascribed with That's why this motherfucker can act. Yeah, yeah, I mean, come on the Canadian ness. Didn't even know. I said, Oh, he's from San Francisco. That's where Starfleep's uh academy is every day. Also, my favorite thing is this is why you know Letter Nimoy is Jewish. There's that moment when he's asked to take the helmet off in there. It's in the early part of the episode, and the sass that he gives as he takes that helmet off was as if he was looking at Gerbel's face and said you lost, motherfucker, and it was so awesome, Like I wish you could screenshot at Kenny go back if you can, and on Instagram, I want you to post the shot. Literally, it's like a it's like a look that he gives, right does he take the first time he takes his helmet off, and they're like, I did to see your ears or I neither whatever they do say his ears, I need to

16:51 see your head, take off your helmet and this sass. Oh I wrote it. I was like, I literally wrote Nimoy's face. What he's removing his helmet that first time is like fuck you bish, I will eat you. I will eat you. It was great. I mean, there's there's there's also the parallels of him being like Spock as like Vulcans as like demon esque and like and Jewish folks being demonized literally like seen as like devils and demons some good and obviously the Vulcan salute is a Jewish symbol, right and all that. So obviously all of those things are very much connected to Leonards past, which is awesome. Yeah take that, Kenny, you suck.

17:40 I agree. In the building. Y'all. You did it. You did it. I'll actually clap for you. You talked about your experience with Star Trek, but Michael and you talked about your experience with Star Wars. What's your experience with Star Wars Episode one, the Phantom Menace. Oh so I am one of those unfortunate souls that was there opening night. Oh it was my birthday, I was. That's pretty great. I wish that I was there on opening night. Okay, I say unfortunate because I did leave disappointed. I did that. I left with the true high hopes of a person who had bought into the fandom and who had probably over hyped it like everybody else did. I probably I wouldn't be surprised if if there's a clip somewhere of me, like, yeah, I love I love Star Wars on some like New Channel. I've seen those clips and it's always so sad to see them go in and then leave. There's the there's the clip in the episode one documentary where they finally opened the line and the two fanboys at the front of the line are like and they're like, there's no way could be back, Like, yeah, it's it's a it's one of those. But I was there. I was there. I was probably what sixteen years old, seventeen years old Bill for me this movie, and I went in with that

19:11 same sadness that we all know and we've all heard a million times when you go out of it, which is, you know, what is the Senate, what is the like all of these like over talking people and conversations and why was there uh, you know, a you know bo Jangles Jamaican character that was there that I didn't understand, Kenny, And he's talking about George Binks. You're doing that, you're doing the dog thing. No, that's not racist. He's a gungan. Oh, that's right, that's right. That's right, that's right. He's he's he can't be racist. Fictional aliens.

19:52 Yeah, yeah, they're not. Yeah, they're not Jamaican. It doesn't matter that Luke was was inspired by the work of Stephen fetch It Network. You're creating jar Jar Binks. It makes it so wrong, Kenny, just with your head, doesn't matter that the Ewoks are truly the Viet Kong and that there's clearly liked everywhere the little little, little, tiny, little furry animals with the Vietcong. That's that's not weird at all. Uh No. So anyway, so I left that movie and I was a little disappointed, But over time I did get to a place where I liked it ish like, and I watched it a bunch. I watched that one countless times, countless times, and I think I got something out of it eventually.

20:41 But upon rewatch now, which I'm sure we'll talk about it all and away again all away, I don't know, as it happens when you play a drinking game and scream a lot. Yes, So let's let's dig into this because I understand that y'all watched Phantom Menace together, which is very exciting. As a co host, I'm interested in the discourse that you both had while watching While watching this film, okay, I think it's just that it was just about specific pieces, like there was a lot of like I think there's a lot of what could make this film better, uh, and I have specific opinions. I don't actually even think that I truly disagree too much.

21:29 I think I just hear because okay, sorry, before we do this, you said something funny, you said, Michael, you said this movie was built for me and I think actually this movie was built for me because and I mean this because I was thinking. I was thinking again while I was watching it, but also while I was watching that behind the scenes little documentary thing about like the very idea of casting such a young child and the way that they're focusing on the comedy of it. I truly think it was literally built for a nine year old. And that's what I was when I saw it. And I came out of it like the Senate is bad? Wow that Trade Federation? Am I right? And I was talking politics al Gore and Dick Yeah. I was just like, wow, this really says a lot about our own current syste nine year yeah, yeah, no, but it is in my vote ten years. I mean that was the year before the two thousand election, right, that was fun. I yeah, yeah, So I think it's actually built for May. He's actually felt for me because you make a good point, you make a great point, and we did talk about that a little bit. I think you're right. At the end of the day, the Star Wars movies were are still fairy tales.

22:55 I think, uh, it's like Irvin Kershner, right, like he's the who's the director of the Empire strikes Back. Hold on, I've actually told him I got him. He's actually sitting right now. Hold on a second, let me pull him out. What do you want me to get on microphone? Okay, so you had said this, this is great. Oh I'm so excited. Me the director of the Eyes of Laura Mars. And did you know that film was written by a young John Carpenter, director of Ghosts of Mars. I think he did a couple other things, but yeah, I'm not familiar. Oh that's great. You should check it out.

23:36 It's great. He's got a couple of on the i n dB. So anyway, So, Herry, so here's a great thing you said this, which I love. Uh, in the middle of making The Empire Strikes Back, I directed The Empire Strikes Back. Yes, yes you did. Yeah? Are you okay? Overall? How are you doing? I have a seltzer and I had some sealary earlier. So here's that. I am full ass a damn. Okay. Well, you had said that this movie, The Empire Strikes Back to the movie that you directed. Yes you did. I know you directed. It was a literal thing. Did you know that I directed that? I swear to you I did I promise you. Listen, do you want to sit down? You're standing right now, and I'm worried about you. I have to get my steps in. Okay, well, okay, Urban, how's death been for you? Oh oh I'm extremely dead. Yes, you look great, Michael. I have to inside real quick. The last time Kenny did the spit, I did exactly what you're doing. It's like this, what are you talking about? This takes me the director for Obo cough too improviser thing to immediately be like time to talk to Irvin. You gotta be honest with your Rollocop too solid movie. Thank you, I thank you. I worked very hard on it. Did you know that a very young friend, thank Miller wrote that movie? What not?

25:03 The old movie? No? Right, he was the old soule writer. Huh, all right, never mind, it's okay, well listen, we'll just I'm gonna go over here now. Yeah, we'll just have me sit down over there. Thank you. Oh no, looks like you just went to go take a nap. Oh good, thank god. Wow. He said it was a fairy tale. I don't know if you know. He said it was like Camelot, which is crazy, because that's what it is it's for children. He's like, it's another fairy tale and you're so, you're absolutely right. Asmen, it's not necessarily for me, but I mean a sixteen year old boy, it's still for me. Discuss back to our discussion in our Star Wars Special Edition episode, because Lucas's thesis for doing Star Wars in the first place was one need to do superheroes in space ye, and it's about he wanted to achieve aesthetics. And that's the original trilogy or specifically Star Wars and Empire just happened to have good stories because Luis was in search of a story that would happen to exhibit the aesthetics that he was chasing. That's really ultimately what it was about. And then you go back through Lucas through film school and th HX went on three eight and American graffiti.

26:26 Those have intent behind them, but especially with American graffiti, he's trying to evoke a mood, he's evoking vibes. Yes, for sure, Star Wars just happens to stumble backwards into being a great movie because Lucas has some fabulous collaborators. Yes, the collaborators talk about it, which that also a little bit true American Zow Troupe wasn't involved with Star Wars like americaraffed watching this movie and give them notes. John Melius wrote the opening crawl for seventy seven Star Wars. Yeah, it's got fingerprints all over the place. But also Lucas was the final much like Michael, the final arbiter of what the heck made it into the movie See you It is like poetry. Rhyme againess like poetry. So if they rhyme, so good you rhymesa christa so us like poetry. God, You're gonna be such a good DJ when you grow up.

27:37 Kenny again, just watch I literally just watch that Phantom Menace behind the scenes, and I was thinking, I was thinking so much having the last The last time I watched it, I remember being so struck by of course he comes in you mean earlier because we've also Yeah, if you feel listener, if you're feeling like you're experiencing deja v. This is the second time that we have covered Phantom Menace, but I think we're gonna have some very different takes. But in this in this, in this one, I had not watched them behind the scenes. The last one you're watching with Michael on on Saturday. Uh do you wait? Do you feel some kind of way about that? Kiddy? Oh? Genuinely, no, it's just that and the text messages that I got it was alluded to that. There was screaming, yelling. We were screaming. Okay, here's what happened. Oh, thank you, I happened. I want tea. You just want to see a better situation. Well, one, we have to set the stage.

28:41 Uh, if it's okay, I talked about it. Michael's beautiful wife is also being subjected to this. She is unhappy. She does not want to watch this film. She's like, we need to do like a drinking game to make this bearable. But the idea of what like would be what would be drinking for her, the thinking would kill us, so we like, you know, can't do it that way. Basically, every time there's a Jedi take a shot, it's basically that. It was like it was something so creat I can't even remember, but it was something like, oh no, no, we'll we'll all die. Well I'll die. And she's just sitting there just like ugh, and she's clearly trying to like watch the film, like a film, and meanwhile we are like, at one point, like Michael is like, you know, this film should have been focused on obi Wan and then it would have been better. And I, because sometimes I just get stubborn, was just like, no, absolutely not, I don't think. And then I went into the importance of you know, like Liam Neeson, like Qui gon Jen as a figure, and like this growth that like it as a film is as much of like a growth of obi Wan and his his path towards this as well. That's just Anak and both of you are doing the puppy thing at me. We're both we're both yeah, we're both looking at acid as if they like get a high pitched like whistle that only we could hear. I personally think the film would just have been better if they had done it totally differently. Yeah, specifically if they

30:25 had aged aged Anakin up. He should have been like he should have been for me, he should have been the same age. It was just absolutely wild to me. But that's one of my biggest things is everything just feels absurd. But that was that was a lot of the core of the screaming. I don't know why, Yeah, so I will I will throw in a little piece to that, because here's my thought on the thing that would make the Phantom Menace better if I could boil it down to just a few items, if I was going to make a uh, let's say, a Demi glass out of the Phantom Menace. A dinni glass is a cooked down sauce that has turned into a velvety, delicious little pan sauce that you can put on anything and it makes it taste delicious. Right. Can I put it on vegetables? You absolutely, cat If you on meal, you can put it on meat. You should probably put it on you put on literally anything. It tastes great. Put it on me, Yes, of course you can. Okay, oh my god, hell yeah. But it would be two things. One, Anakin should have been the same age as uh no, as Luke, so that we would have seen the parallels of Luke being this little whiny bee and Anakin being you know, awesome. It would be great. And then the second thing is we uh QUI gone, yeah,

31:56 if we if it doesn't rhyme, rhyme, George, it could have been poetry, so that the rhyme we're trying to make that y'all, don't know this. I really want you to just do more video work. Kenny's face lights up if you reference the rhyme, and so they did light up that time. Uh. And then the other thing that's more important is it should have been Obi Wan as Qui Gon at all times. Qui Gon does everything. Qui Gon, who we don't know or care about whatsoever. Uh from the lore of this thing, doesn't Uh. He just tells Obi Wan to go make phone calls the entire movie until the end, until finally Qui Gon is dead, and then Obi Wan's like, all right, I guess I should do something now. Michael's very mad about this. It's so ridiculous, Like why is Obi Wan not like hanging out with Anakin at all, getting to know him, seeing some stuff, seeing him do fun things.

33:00 Uh? Uh. Well, so when Qui Gon dies, by the way, and this is something that you said we'll ask, it was like, well, he needs that like mentor moment of the death. And then Motherbuck is like a million miles away while the other dude's doing spins. You don't even know that he's dead. He doesn't know that he's dead till ages later, a mentor moment for Obi Wan yeah, okayes the star of the movie, Obi Wan Kenobi on the phone, saying, Master, there's a we did more motor engines for our engine drive. What should we do with our engine motors? We're out of guess yeah, we've got no more motivation for our motor motors. I imagine George Lucas financing this movie so much, using so much of his own money to make this gargantuan independent film. Yes, uh, money from toy sales and stuff pre sales. But for some reason, he refers to the hyperdrive is just a motor engine. He's like a bastar, U Loo, can we use our bus bus drive for our motor engine. We've got noble motivators. He's like, He's like, Wow, I'm really going to take the ship into the American graffiti. I think just punched the pick the key code t x h X one one three eight pop boop, it worked boo. Why is he not helping him out with the

34:34 damn pod? Reason? Why is he not teaching him how to sword laser? Here's what's even more perplexing. Charge r had to be there. Here's what's even more perplexing. To add a wrench into the mechanics here. Let's not talk about jar jar and wrenches. Uh not. So Qui Gon was not in original draft of The Phantom Menace. Who was Obi Wan? Yeah? Imagine if it's just some oar. I was waiting for the curve ball. I was like, it's It was Dak Bukhan, and I'm like, oh, who the fuck is this guy? It was actually famed character actor Bill Patton, and as himself, whoa this boys got over twenty thousand midichlorins and we gotta get into the Jedi Council. Bill, you're man, what are we gonna do? Man? I can't believe Bill and Irvin are both in your room right now. Is it Irving or Irving? Irving? It's weird, no G, but it sounds like it sounds like Irving. It's fine, right, Irving, But no, no G I G. Yeah.

35:47 So it's interesting that in original drafts of the or at least one earlier draft, it was Obi Wan of the Qua Gon role. And then at some point Lucas was like, we're gonna put Qui Gon, We're going to invent Qui Gon, and then and then it removes Obi Wan basically as a character from that You're right, I just don't like that either. I don't like it either. I think the fundamental issue is that this movie, and I believe I said this on a previous Phantom Menace episode and I'll reiterate it again, this movie needs a different director. Well because because and I think this is something that Aspen has helped me see and listening to the A More Civilized Age podcast. But wise, there is so much there on the page that gets completely lost in execution. Politics are extremely interesting because totallycharacters are talking with so much lad in subtext and it's all about subterfugeon there's there's the Phantom Menace. Is the politics, y'all? Tension? Yeah, And it's just there is a whole bunch there on the page in the stext, but it

37:19 just doesn't come across at all, and it is mired in stilted execution, poor direction, flat direction. Uh. And what delight there is is primarily provided with truly revolutionary visual effects that set the palate of what blockbuster filmmaking is today, which is absolutely which is what Roger Eberts said, Yeah it is, It's exactly that. And you know what's interesting too, is I know there There's an argument as well that seventy seven Star Wars also changed the entire face of blockbuster filmmaking. It did. Yeah, and so now you have because I remember and I've said this before, and I said it wrong before, so I'm going to be wrong again. This was this one was like one of the first mostly digital films to be shown. Is that the case, No, I got it wrong again when we talked about this on our Phantom Menace episode, right, Yes, I know, let's we're going to go into the deep dive section. It's great, it's great, it's it's it's so funny. I just preserved that is a false memory in my mind, and I'll tell you why. It's because it was to me as a child. I think that felt it felt that way. It's gotta be one of the biggest of that time. Right. Like, as far as fully digital films, it is not fully digital. It's not fully There's one scene that was shot on digital, yes, okay, and that is actually the

38:51 Midichlorian check scene. They came back shot that much later. That is shot on digital videos. Hold on, hold on a second. So you're saying when they when Darth Ball and them were fighting in that light tunnel. That's not fully digital. There's a difference. You're talking about digital effects. Yeah, talking about where supposed to film film where you can see I gotcha get episodes two and three are I got digitally? Oh that's what it is. That's what it is is. It's not that Phantom menaces. It's at the next two were right, and that's what it is. Those where Phantom Menace is kind of cures. There's a I think it's the best looking of the prequels. Yeah, because probably because it is film. I think there's still a lot more practical stuff mixed in with the digital stuff. There are it meshes well and then unfortunately, but what changes the game even more. We'll talk about this more in Attack Clones. And you can listen to this on the digital Filmmaking episode of blank Check. Whenever they were just a Star Wars podcast, Oh that game was digitally filmed, not I imagine. I was like, this is blowing my fucking guess. There's there's this, there's this podcast. So we'll just the podcast is called blank Check. It used to be that they were, Yeah, they were exclusively about Star Wars. They

40:23 were talking about the break balls and they go through it and there is an episode I remember now it's been years since i've really good episode. It's very cool. But the film blank Check was was filmed on film. What a great film? Can we talk about blank Check? What a great movie? Like? Honestly, Richie rich suck it. Blank Check's amazing. I've never seen it. Oh, it's so good. Sorry, Katy, I didn't mean it to cut you off. But I get a question about that, because wonderful, I'd love to answer. I guess it's digital film, because this is this actually peaks my little digital digital video digital videos? What what is the pod race done on? Just digitally computers? Those are done in computers and then they do everything else is film and then they do normal film with that and then it has printed out onto film. That's so cool.

41:23 Yeah, I love it. Yeah, from what I understand, I could be getting that very wrong. But that's the process. And that's also why the push to digital became so much more important because it shortened the time between doing a lot less. Yeah, we're gonna do computer stuff and then we got to put it on film. Why don't we just marry the two. I just I just feel like I feel like this is just a change in everything, like maybe and again maybe that's why I've like established it as this. Obviously it comes up and attack the clones where it's like fully digital. But I just remember the different fence, the moment when they started putting that thing before movies at movie theaters where it'd be like, this is digital basically, and how different it was. And I remember them like when everything just suddenly like they stopped saying that because everything was now digital, and it just it just does feel like a huge monumental shift. And I do wonder about and I mean this, I do not mean to be like glib here like the last like the loss of soul that goes into this, like the like obviously, I I don't hate this film. I would love that we have more of everything, but I wonder about what we lost through it. So there's with grade Paler. It comes great. Yeah, please watch your language.

42:49 This is a family podcast. You I'm allowed to say that, by the way. I can't. I can't say hold on, let me, let me just get my spoons so I can have a big doll up of Mayonne's over here. Yeah, I think there, I think there. You are correct, Uh, Steve Yedlin, uh, director of photography for The Last Jedi, probably the best looking Star Wars movie, and it's just kind of cinematography genius. Yeah. Has also a very valid argument about at this point film and digital can be interchangeable. And also I think Aspen is correct because folks don't want to do necessarily the care because there is. They just want to get to uh, the the end result as quickly as possible, as opposed to putting to care. What is so interesting from Fincher Fincher is God, Yes, that guy who's fin David Fincher does all digital and he does like seventy three thousand tanks that everything is meticulous. So he's the one, He's the one, dude doing it, doing it, doing it.

44:10 It's also interesting that we're trying to this conversation because how did how did y'all watch The Phantom Menace on Saturday? On a television screen that was digital? Is that where you're getting at? Did I get it right? Probably watched plastic flat screen, plasma flat screen? What do you want me to say? What was the medium that you watched it? Oh? Not just TV, but it was legally down the the streaming wouldn't work either way. You got a digital copy, yes, which makes sense. I watched this because I'm in Star Wars forums. I watched a four K thirty five millimeters scan.

44:51 Oh cool, and it looks sick as hell. I believe what is really lost in and I guess the digital presentation of even though I'm still watching, I'm still watching a simulation of the analog thing. But it looks so much more rich. The lighting looks so much prettier as opposed to I think the version that I am used to, which is just like the DVD version or the Blu Ray version, the version that's available on Disney Plus. There's just something that looks a lot more flat as opposed to like the gorgeous depth of Empire, which has such beautiful cinematography. And I think that just speaks probably more to where Lucas was at that time, where he is more interested in the toys. Yeah, like so many filmmakers get to at that point in times, like the tools, like the innovative tools, because it could be misconstrued with Lucas because also there are actually a billion toys that that matter to the development of these movies. But I agree with you it was he was. He definitely used the all Jim Cameron. I'm calling him Jim because we're homies. Uh to like move I would, I would. I would hang out with James Karen so hard. It would be like I would.

46:24 I would sit there and I'd be like, just get me in that abyss. You know what I'm talking about. Give me. I don't think deep deep, I'm like, I crave the experience. I just don't you want that. I want it. Tell me all your true lies, James h Yep. But yeah, so I agree with you, Keeddy, like I think I think the tech became more important to him than the movie, than the making a film that we would really understand and love and care about.

47:04 Well, not not not just the toys, because but me. As we've been doing for the past three episodes. Y repiloting the George Lucas legacy Christ Almighty. He's also very interested in his legacy as an auto our, the idea that he's everything as him. It's all been in his little noggin for years and now he just has the tools to be able to do it. And you can see the beginnings of it in the special editions where he's making choices that are not so great of choices. But it's just for the sake of almost like reckconning his own stories, like not, I mean, his own story of being like the creator of the thing that he's always had this in mind, so now it's in here. One. Of course, he most certainly didn't welcome to me, being very mad at George Lucas. So he comes in on films, on previous films, of course, where there were different directors, there were different writers. There's many hands in this.

48:13 Now we have, of course, the first one where it is solely George Lucas in writing and directing, of course, obviously not solely him in terms of bringing it to life. That's a literal, veritable army of human beings mostly right, So yeah, so, But in terms of it being the vision of the thing and everyone having to like cow to him, he is he is, He's created this image of himself through this. This is the story of George Lucas. Interesting. So we're talking legacy and what do you and I don't I don't know how much longer we should talk about this versus the other thing, But I'm so interested in this kind of conversation. Uh, the legacy of Lucas, especially in the n eighteen hundreds and nineties, is what you're referring to as far as the nineteen hundreds and as far as yes, like a CG. Jaba into a special edition and all this stuff and then him claiming like that's how it should be. Is that what you're saying? Okay, I agree with this? Yes? And oh who did you guys know that we all do improv? Could people tell? Can people tell that we're a fucking obnoxious? Well? You thinking about it, the entire Star Wars saga is like a herald. There's patterns, Yes, and then you can count like Rogue one and Solo as the group games stop it,

49:45 get the buck that got so deep? Yes, But also and thinking about Luke's Skywalker as Lucas audience or as George Lucas circuit as the avatar, and being like, this is me George Lucas as a kid wanted to go make a difference, wanting to do something in the world, but don't exactly know what to do, getting caught swept up into a system that is larger than him and ending up being someone that is so pivotal you completely change the environment at the same time, the trilogy then becomes about atonement with the father, his father, because Lucas has on record of having a quite tumultuous relationship with his father and doesn't actually get respect from his father until he makes the Star Wars trilogy, and so his relationship finally resolves whenever he makes it big.

50:58 And also his father a business owner than George George Jr. Which is George Lucas becomes a gargantuine business owner. And then uh oh, so do you think that George is like, what do you do? You love me now? Dan? Yeah? And then and then then Darth Vader dies, but he does love Luke at the very end, and then it's that it's a different Darth Vader later and as Ghost Vader. What happens then? What does that mean? Kenny? I think father. I think at some point Lucas was just like, you hate this, I'm gonna I'm gonna put it in more. That's true. I don't know. We most certainly did not talk enough about George Lucas's daddy problems. I'm telling you that well, and I think this is this is important to this next question, a question that we asked on our previous Phantom Menace episode, and I will ask again to the panelists once more. I'm a I'm a co host, amount of panelist.

52:09 The panelists here you, me and Joprio and Irvin over in the corner. Yeah, yeah, oh my gosh, Michael's es. You do have real Lando vibes. Beg you, you know, like say, listen, I'm a little bit of a I'm a little bit of a guard, a little bit of a cat, a little bit of a cat. And what's ed that your performance is so much better than Donald lovers and solo. That's true, It really is true, Matrix reactions being a masterpiece. I'm right about Donal terrible performance and bad time. Maybe we're not here toleticate this matrix La matrix a frappuccino who I'm so sorry. We really need to not pick on you. It doesn't matter because in eight years Yo would be on my side. It's gonna be we're terrorists if we are we are, if we are subscribing to Star Wars through the lens of a tour theory. The two kids with their dad who were just like, we're like yourself, thank you so much. If we get through this, I swear to you use Patreon money to get you guys McNuggets happy. If we are subscribing to every film is about their filmmaker, and we're ascribing to au tour theory, which doesn't necessarily apply but for the sake of exercise, and because Lucas does exercise whenever

53:45 he does direct, at least send his three previous films so personal to him. There are so many personal elements. Who do you think is the Lucas surrogate here in Phantom Menace? Hmmm, I'm gonna say it's Yoda Yoda, It's Yoda, Lady Doodle. Okay, I'm gonna say it's actually I'm gonna say it's boss nasts the same. No, But also because he's like uh uh, is that he doesn't do a lot and then at the end he's the one who raises the ball. He's the one who acts like he nailed it. Kun. If you're if you're George Lucas putting yourself into the movie, who do you if you you're George Lucas, It's okay because we on the outside can be like nas is it qui? Gon? Is that what you think? Kiddy? I don't think that there's a right answer. I have a I think it's Anakin Skywalker, and I will get to it after this. Whoa, because I I could see the qui gon in the sense of like being like, well, I'm measured. I'm coming from this perspective, this point of view when I have my vision. And here's how you get into abound out, how you get into you just have to say this one word, as Liam Neeson, it's bananas. But you have to say

55:15 but not nursed, but nurse my wife, my wife she does. Oh, that's how you get into Harrison for my wife, my wife, it's so much. My wife was trying to go for love love actually, Liam Neeson, Okay, okay, okay, I'm sorry. I'm back. That man is so tall, that man is six four. So I think just because of coming at it with that perspective, that's maybe like being the guiding force of in the way he'd see myself. That's my guess. That's my argument. Michael opinions if okay, if I were if it were to really be somebody that I think he would have like a true connection to that he would say, I am uh like I feel like this person. I think it's I think it's uh, yes, I think it's Yeah, I think it's Palpaty because I think that, like you said, he started to do the thing that he wanted with the things with the special editions, and he started to maliciously own it, like he wanted to almost kick you know, uh what's it to like stick it to the people that thought that they had

56:50 better ideas on the Star Wars lore. They were doing all these extended universe stuff, and he's like, that's not my loop, that's not mine, you know, I don't know who uh was it like uh oh, I'm blakeing on the names now, but all of the like the fact that Luke has babies and the factory yeah yeah. And it's like I feel like he started to become insidious a little bit into his own thing, and he was all owning he was like everything. Well, this very much goes into my reading of why I think he's the the Lucas analog is and in Skywalker, and it's actually a lot of those points. But also whereas Palpatine is manipulating everything Lucas, you read everything, you read the interviews, and he's very much just like I wanted to do tone poems. I wanted to do experimental artsy movies and he's coming into he gets hold into the thing, oh like almost like interesting? Will yeah, like yeah, but shut up, George would make the movies we want because it's like he wanted to keep making American Graffiti. He wanted to keep making like he didn't want to make American Graffiti was a challenge from Coppola being like, go warm movie, right, and so he made that and it's a masterpiece, right. But he Yeah,

58:22 he wants to make his tone poems. He wants to make his like feeling never mind, I dig that no one has stopped him from that. But I think this is also a filmmaker who's looking back on his life with some regrets. And so in this weird way, this is him looking at his career so far and singing with one, two, and three where he went wrong. And I say, this will make the Phantom menace before going to therapy. I will actually a dendum that and I'll say, men will make Captain e o before going to therapy. Sorry, I interrupted you for a joke, can you please? That's I mean, that's that's on point.

59:08 Because Lucas is also extremely self aware of the person that he has become. You read it interviews, and he's like, yeah, I think I just kind of became the Empire at some point. So he's he's aware and so millionaire, right, like, how could you be like a rebel and like all of those things when you when you're selling toys became he became the system. And not only that, but his intentions were manipulated by a grander system. And then the system co opted the thing that he was good at to become to become a tool for nefarious deeds, and so he became lost in the weeds, if you like. Even though Luke Skywalker is the avatar for the original trilogy, I think and again this this is all extra textual analysis.

1:00:01 I don't think any of this is on record. But if we're applying au tour theory, which I am quite liberally, I think I think that's that's what Lucas is trying to examine. And then yeah, here's my what do you think of that take? I've got a hotter take incoming. Okay, I fully agree with everything you said about him becoming the empire, him becoming the bad guy. I think he I mean, you know, Allah Palpatine Allah Anakin, Like they're similar in that way. Yeah, Anakin being probably more like George in nineteen seventy seven, then Palatine would be obviously but then ultimately being corrupted and then now becoming the thing. I love it.

1:00:53 I truly think that George Lucas was like out of his rocker what he made the Phantom Menace, and he got to the end line of it, like you watched the documentary stuff and he's spouting whatever, and everybody's like, uh huh, Yeah, everything's great. And that's why we have a meme of him talking about poetry rhyming, because everybody's like, yeah, that's great, But in Hinsley, you're like, what the what. Although I would like to say before you got on Mike or before you came on, I was I did just watch that whole thing, and I do feel like that whole poetry rhyming thing, the original idea is very beautiful because this whole idea is my argument there. Sorry, I'm taking a small thing out of context.

1:01:39 We're going to come back to the point here in a second, which is that he at that point had only made three films and then to bring this one film where it's like, here's the father of Luke Skywalker and like there is a reflection and like he is the one who does like ultimately help them win the final battle with in the ship. And that's the same thing with Luke in the finals. It's what he was referring to when he's talking about this poetry. Can you though? Because here's why, here's why I want us to stop, And because here's the thing. Okay, we're talking yes men, yes about this. Yes, right, And there's a billion yes men, yes in this thing. Yes. And you know the proof that there is a there's just all he was surrounded by yes men throughout the film is one uh mister Juju binks it's jar jars where everybody said yes to that.

1:02:37 That is, there was never a hold on well should we, hey, George, real quick? Should we? Is there any other designs for fun character out there? Maybe not, not that one. George is the key to all of this. There is the key to all of this. I mean that the key to unlocking the madness. If that's what you mean, I think it. I again, I know I'm coming off of having watched it. I've said that a billion times that documentary, and it made me feel really upset to see Ahmed Best having so much fun and like being so clearly so fun to work with and having like a great time or like doing like committing himself to this performance. This is no and so it feels like like a like I'm like, it's a real big fuck you to George, like fuck you truly for like having no awareness of this thing and what you've like done, and then also fuck you to an entire fandom of like people who rather than direct their eye appropriately, decided to like terrorize a guy.

1:03:47 It's it's the weird thing about criticism of Phantom Menace because then uh, genuine criticism that could have been constructed becomes bad faith criticism and then essentially just kind of gets kind of aggregated into George Lucas sexually assaulted my childhood. Oh yeah, yeah yeah, but then it then just galvanizes him even further. Although episode two and episode three the reasons that I don't think those are nearly even though Phantom Metas Make No Mistake is not a good movie, but I think episode two and episode three are not nearly as whole. You can see them being way more compromised and a reactionary Yeah. Yeah, Phantom Menace.

1:04:40 Yeah, I wonder if that's that's funny. Phantom Menaces so many fucking issues. And also it is my favorite of the three. It is because it is holy itself. It is, it is all of all of the bad intention stuff. It's it is itself has its own thing as opposed to I think what episodes two and three are trying to do, and I think I agree with you totally. I think the old it's like where it's like Poetry at Ryan stuff comes in the appearance of like C three po and Archie D two and these things where you're just like, right, you're shoving this, And then episodes two and three do that even more because I think Lucas is savvy enough to be like, well, fans like a both vet, we gotta do it, Yeah, we gotta have. But I mean, you're right, I think Star Wars has been reactionary since nineteen ninety nine, like period. Everything that we've seen from Star Wars, aside from like I think maybe the cartoon network Clone Wars has had like a little bit of a taste of like we've gotta we gotta, we gotta backtrack some stuff. We gotta do some some some red coonning and cleaning up and everything has been retconning something for the past twenty years, I mean reponsible. Yeah, Michael, you'd be interested to know that it's also a reckon reaction area. So real quick, real, real quick. Should we talk about Star Trek. We're going

1:06:11 to get to it. Uh wait, what's Star Trek? We're going to get to it. Because I also think that Patterns of Force is especially now an extremely rich text to talk about. Possibly coincidentally, I think it's so interesting to see different stories about different rises of fascism. Not only that, but like also in both of these is what it looks like to have a populist, one focused leader that can lead to like to this thing, uh like to this new system and the kinds of ways that then ultimately, like it is battle say, it is having an US versus them that leads to concentrated power ultimately, which is the core of Patterns. Of course, wow, Ptaw has become the master the Boy. So anyway, let's talk about Star Wars. But also the idea. I think it's really compelling. What you are talking about, though, is the idea of like, even if he recognizes it or not that Lucas is the tour he is also the charismatic leader. At least he sees himself as this thing. I think he has enough of self awareness to recognize even he's not all the way, but I think he has self awareness enough where exactly what you said, he's the charismatic leader and led to some uh, he's the charismatic leader like Captain Kirk in

1:07:43 Patterns of Flour No, like John Gillis or whatever. John gillis the figurehead. John Gillis first, yeah, that's true, Malicon, but John Gillis as like this leader, which yeah, John, sorry, John gill it is. So it's interesting to research the perception of this through These Are the Voyages season two. It's a book that he reads. It's a book that I read all the time, by Mark Cushman. That's where I pulled my research from Cash A. Cush theh But frequently, and I believe this was written before twenty sixteen. But frequently critics and the author himself are like, yeah, this episode's pretty mid it's not great. The director Vincent mcabedie is like, I think this might have been my least favorite episode that I ever directed, And I'm watching this now and I'm being like, this isn't astute piece of populist TV making sort of the nineteen sixties, because this could have been just like Kirk coming in punching the fascist leader and bouncing, and instead it has the whre withal to wreck nice. How the systems are employed, how you can manipulate them. Aspen's favorite thing, it doesn't take the individual to punch out them, but instead a community of people that are working in

1:09:14 tandem in order to at least begin to dismantle those systems. Should like Star Wars is great, Star Wars, No, Star Wars Star Wars is ultimately actually about community together defeating Just putting that out there, Oh, not segueing then We're not No, no, no, we are. I'm just I'm just I'm just saying that. Often you hear the argument that I'll be like, well, Star Trek is actually about the collective and Star Wars is about individuals. No, no, no, no, no, that's not my argument anyway. Could that be about thedividuals? We have ewoks anyway. Yes. One of the things that's so interesting you said that, Kiddy, because one of the things that I thought was how now that you say this, like, how could that be bad if Quentin Taranty know, literally copied that for a whole movie, Like Inglorious Bastards is just this right, Like it's literally so influential to this, Like it's it's got Wizard of Oz in there, It's got Glorious Bastards in there. Uh, it's got standard Nazi fair there. What what's not to like? Yeah, you know it's funny too because I also Skinny s I it's got hot Skinny Spock. They're all hot.

1:10:30 No, no, no, I will say this. Leonardie moy has been a a darling and a handsome man. He's been in many Next Generation episodes and he's always killed. Oh no, that's his dad. That's his dad. Sarah is in a lot of them. Uh two, two or three, that's the important ones. Uh and Sarah episode is so good? All right, all right, I think it's good. I mean it's season three is an is a season of TV where it's just like someone spilled all the bangers out on the table and they were just like should we put the bangers in the box? And they're like, actually, let's stay them for season four, Let's just kind of leave the bangers on the table. Let's just go well, he okay, I know what you're about to say, and I disagree. Well, part of that is because they do put makeup on Leonard Nimoy to make him look more sallow, because his no, no, no, it's his. It's the shoulders. He looked, he looked.

1:11:33 He's got a great he's got an actor's head. Head is giant have actors heads? No, no, no, no, you know what I'm talking about. The one thing like you could just film from here to here and it'll fill up the four by three ratio, Michael. Some of us like guinea boys. That's some of us also like big boys. Some of us like muscular boys. We like all the boys. I was shocked by Scot, That's all I'm gonna say. I was all in on chefs, the chef boy himself, and I was shocked by Spock, and I like fixated on it. Probably too long, but covered in green paint. Okay, a bit a bit of a well, but okay, well, hatties everywhere, hotties everywhere, hatties everywhere, the uh shirtless Shatner chef's kiss.

1:12:28 I liked I liked the little rebel who could you know, the rebel without a cause whatever his name was, is Zach is Zach? Because I was like yes, because I was like, I was like very close to Isaac. And then he's like the other guy's ab which is like Abraham DoD and and I sock, I wrote that down up. Yeah, Okay, you guys gotta try harder on the allegories there, you know the connections. I think it's pretty subtle. Oh, I know what I was going to say before I got distracted arguing for Skinny Spock is that I also was reading kind of reviews and perceptions even not like at the time, but now, yeah, I did some research. God damn it, you ask she's kind of curious. And I feel like a lot of a lot of what you see as people being like this is tired, like this is done right and it's so funny, and I wonder if it is just like something about like the time where we are like, yes, nazis a real true threat now and the rise of a dangerous like populist fascist force is a threat now. So I watched this. I watch this episode and I'm like, yes, all of this is relevant. Now as opposed to being like ah another like those Nazis, they're not a big deal anymore. Why are we doing this episode?

1:13:49 Yeah? It was in watching when I dry video essay? Is that help me see that Nazis were able to become just blanket bad guys that then American exceptionalism, no matter what, could beat up Nazis and prove how masculine that they are, which is so so fascinating because Nazis unequivally bad guys. And also now they've been able to be co opted as a perfect symbol of a bad guy, so it can show how badass America is. Yeah, there and there there is something too. I was thinking about like two about the idea of it, like hitting you over the head with this black and white of badness kind of thing, which of course we don't have that we have a complexity. But also sometimes I am like, there's a black and white badness here, like there actually is now again sometimes there is. Uh, I will say, as a person of color, it's always there's always been a black and white badness, which was bad. I didn't know that you're a person of color. I don't see color, so woods see, we're no no, but he really is color blind. He has no guns and rats. Yeah, I got no car. It's like a dog.

1:15:08 He's like, oh shit, so what do you think? Like? Everything looks like you said, looks like is she not the same skin color as new Kingdrich? No? Interesting, not anymore. The only one who is is Michael Jackson and Sammy Sosa teeth cut references. Nobody will on this podcast. I agree with you. I like that perspective. I liked this episode. I thought going into this I was going to, uh, I was going to have not a bad time, but I was going to it was going to be a slog like I was going to have to watch this as homework and not for fun. And I ended up watching it and really liking it. I liked I thought it was fun. I thought it was cheesy and kitschy and all of the things. It wraps up in literally a minute and a half, which is a classic like old show thing, and they do the other classic old TV show thing, which is right after the commercial break, they just repeat everything that just happened, which is so obviously that there is like a commercial break, And I love that right after what after a commercial break, sockety in seat again if they run so like I was saying, like, I love that they just kind of wrap everything up right

1:16:38 at the end in ninety seconds. Oh, I'm sorry, it was Joe just going back in case anybody missed that. Okay, I like it. I like the parallels too. There's a lot of Star Wars parallels. Right. They're taking uniforms, that's always. That's a trope. That's like an ultimate Star Wars trope. I actively was like they pulled a Star Wars Wars. Yeah. I love that. They were like stealing the thing they were breaking in. It was a constant like Burke like a like, right, what's every Star Wars is just basically a caper movie? Right, Like they're always just like breaking into something somewhere to like, you know, gat they have to get six people together in order to break somebody out or do something by breaking in. That's everything. And they're running away and then they're fucking it up somehow, and it's it's it's Ocean's eleven in space all the time every Star Wars. Uh, And I'm not wrong. Rogue one so low, they're so even then one solo, particularly as a heist fun yeah, and so hold on, hold on the last forty minutes or our highest movie.

1:17:45 The rest of that movie just doesn't know what the hell it's doing. That's all, okay, that's fine. It's still And don't act like I'm not right. You and me are legion on this. We're going to be right. It's fine. So you can say that about the first Star Wars movie, right, The first forty minutes has not has nothing to do with a princess and trapped in a prison. Oh, make no mistake. I'm just looking for any excuse to clown a Rogue one. Hey, because our good friend and patron Mark Bibert very much likes this movie, and I like, I like you Mark him. I was going to Mark and b I think the wrong kind of fans have mobilized behind Rogue one because it's the most badass as opposed to like being like it's an okay film that hasn't amazing.

1:18:30 It's bad. It's not great. It's great, Michael, great, yes, thank you, but it's it's not great. But anyway, hold on a second, Michael, do you I don't know if you noticed this about Rogue one, and maybe AskMen can help help me on this analysis. But like, I guess the first Star Wars movie, that's like about war. Yeah, I would say, like it's like it actually like kills people. There's people that actually wild, like people are actually like like, she's a rebel, she rebelled, but she doesn't say about national yeah, because it's too bad. A war going on. Dad. She's got a dad too, but he was like a war Dad Orkins dies. Do we care?

1:19:12 We don't care. We don't. We didn't care about that one, Michael. We didn't care about it until Rogue one. No, because Rogue one, like people died? What about people died, Michael? People die? What didn't Willow die? Will die? No, don't get it. I get it. I don't listen. I did a lot of push outs while washing Rogue one. You know, it got me real. It got your real palms, I got your real pomped. It was like it was like Vietnam for real. It was it was actual because there was jungle. Okay, what are the other connections you saw between Star Wars and Start the other connection I saw? Wait? I wrote this out. Oh Dang Dang ding ding ding Uh. I liked the not CG but CG shots of the enterprise in space. I thought that looked pretty good for the time, and I was actually wrote it down. It's like, is this updated for Paramount plus or not? Because it is okay because the exact experience. Yes, yeah, because most people are watching the special editions of it. But unlike Star Wars, you can actually go easily procure the original versions of legal means, as opposed to you have to to find a legal copy of the original versions.

1:20:36 You have to say there it is all bs, well, it looked good. And then the last thing I think you're gonna like this one, because I thought this was like sort of like a a more aw toeur esque version of this was there's a line that Spock says in the beginning of it. He says something about it looks like this is all about causes and motivation. Yes, And I was like, that is Star Wars, right, Like it's all especially the first one, right, like, it's all about what happens and who's motivated to do some sort of uh, you know, manipulation and indiation in the backgrounds, and then how that affects the world around it. So we go to Tattlewen and we see the slaves akas Zeons being persecuted, and I said, oh, Kenny's gonna get hard for this one.

1:21:32 Kenny came earlier when you said your it was gross. It was all over the microphone. He's doing it again. You can do it on command. That's actually what a jedi. Yeah, if you're a Jedi, the main thing you do is just make yourself come, like if I was if I was a fifteen year old Anakin sky Jedi, and I didn't make myself come all the time. I am not the chosen one. That's all I'm saying. I would do it a bunch. I'm not thinking about how I can do it right now. You can't. I can't. I don't have that skill. I don't have the Mediclorians. We don't have the Mediclorian accounts to do it. My vindicount is too low many counts. Yes, though, I'm so I loved that line actually because I also feel that way about history, that like, it's it's a story. It's a story. It's about motivations and people, and its stories can be told by certain people and not told like not have the other stories be told. It's not it's not dates and figures. It's about what leads from one thing to the next.

1:22:46 Uh, and so I like that, and it's true, that's if Star Wars is about. Yeah, it's about the rise of an empire and the fall of an empire. Star Trek, of course, is like post all of that in the right because we've already had all these uprisings and now we're into utopia. Just for Earth. Star Wars is looking at the world as it is, and Star Trek is looking at the world the way that we want it, the way Gene wants it to be full of sex. Yeah, very not a terribly horny episode, except for the fact that we did a shirtless spot. You're right, it wasn't who was not in it nearly enough for this guy's never in it. She needs to be in everything all the time. Uh. The little blonde Savior, you know, it was a little cutie, little cuty, but she's all right, Yeah, like a six. I think earlier in this episode we were talking about kind of using aesthetics rather using story as a means of exhibiting aesthetics. Uh, huh

1:24:20 uh. And I'm gonna read you this memo from NBC executive Stan Robertson because all of us are being like, this is a great episode, pretty insightful about how insidious fascism is, even though that this episode is extremely blunt unsubtle, which make no mistake, I think subtlety is for cowards. Well, he just came out his microphone again. Guys, Oh my god, anger come wowt subtlety is for cowards. We live in unseubtled times. Stream at stream your viewpoints loud. But also, like Lucas, he backed his way into his story so he could use his aesthetics. And so here's this memo from Stan Robertson NBC executive to producer in charge of the time, genekun Mm hmmm. One of the contingencies upon which this outlined patterns of force was approved was your statement that our previous considered story dealing with a Nazi type theme has been abandoned. We would add that it is our suggestion that we not too heavily, not dwell too heavily on the speeches, philosophy, et cetera of the Nazi like group, but concentrate more on the visual excitement, which is obviously inherent in this well plooted storyline. Yeah. Interesting, So he's saying, don't do a German accent, just rock the rock the outfits. Is

1:25:53 that what he's saying. I think what this means is you can use the aesthetics, but like, don't use the talking Well they do use the talking points, but they could have gone harder as opposed to I think what the what Nazi imagery eventually becomes and what is so easy to subvert when the in our current rise of fat in our current state of fascism, Rather because as long as you don't look like these all of these signposts, well you can't be a Nazi. You're wearing a poll of shirt storch. That means that you're not a Nazi. So at least we're not those guys. But you represent someone that is clearly an evil. But you kind of sand the edges down, even though they are still talking about a final solution. But you never and you do see some whippings on our main characters, but you don't see the grotesque atrocities, and you don't see them malling about the truly abhorrent behaviors because it would be a bummer. And also I just wonder if there isn't a little bit of well, like we don't want to offend someone involved in here, because I'm reminded of some passage that I read recently where the the there was a brief resurgence of blackface in the sixties and they were like,

1:27:27 what are you doing? Stop it? From the end, Double ACP and other folks, and so they got rid of blackface, and because they didn't want any complaints from anyone, they just didn't hire black actors period until the n Double ACP rallied for like what we want to be on TV because they don't care about the subject matter. They care about the esthetics. The yeah, the aesthetics, and then ultimately the backlash is like fine, fine, then we won't. It's it's weirdly, I'm I just listened to a podcast. This is gonna be a complete tangent. Sorry, I listen to a podcast today about the Google AI thing that happened. Have you heard about this where Google has that's creepy. It's creepy. Wait a year about it.

1:28:23 Google has ah owing for corrected their AI so that when you would type in something like show me a photo of the founding fathers, they're now all like bipod folk. And that was that's a real thing. They looked like like the Hamilton, you know cast, instead of who they actually were. And then it would do the same thing for like the CEOs of Google, Like if you would type in image, give me an image of the CEOs of Google on a unicorn, it would be like Asian people and st of like the way and what it was was ages ago in Google Photos. Do you remember this. I remember this where they used to start the tagging when it used to auto tag stuff like friends and stuff and images. Yeah, they auto tagged gorillas for black folk in photos because they had not done enough data pulling of black folk to like tag them properly, and they got a huge kerfuffle, so they did this instead. So they overcorrected and then made the founding fathers black because they were like, well, we'll do this sort of like weird extra work. And that's what it almost sounds like what you're talking about here, where it's like, oh, you guys got offended by this, or maybe Ohura kissing Captain kirkis is crazy. We just would have any possibility of that ever happening ever again. And then everybody's like no, no, no, no, right, that's not how we wanted. That's all what we want. We want it to be reasonable. Yeah, right,

1:29:57 for studios, it is no matter what it is ultimately about the battle bottom line, Which is why whenever art does become meaningful, it becomes extra special because you have to recognize that every single force is trying to or is trying to stand down every single possible edge to make it as profitable, not even safe, but profitable as possible. That's why we all loved everything, everywhere, everywhere, all at once, because it's the only thing that's not sanded on its edges. I got it. Here's what I was gonna bring up. Here we go. Yeah, you want to talk about standing some edges. There is a scene in which, after the twelfth time that Kirk and Spock have knocked some Nazi guard out. I mean, how many times do they do it? Like fourteen times? In my opinion? Punch it?

1:30:49 Do you'all remember whenever we start arguing about punching Nazis, and I genuinely was like, punch a fucking Nazi and stop it. Sorry, go on, I don't remember that. I wish I was there. People are like I would I wouldn't engage in that kind of violence. I'm just like fuck off, punch Jesus anyway, put that on a shirt. There is the twelfth time they do it. Uh, the rebel without a cause? So hold yes, somebody for one and a half milliseconds and that dude is out for ever. And it happens. No, that's a fulcon pinch happens, not how it show cold happens. And I don't want to get to be fair. He's xyon. Yeah, maybe zons have their own words, so Xeon's and and what's the other what's the other culture? Econs made up?

1:31:54 Did you make that up? I couldn't. I can't remember. But I also it's eCos and say on, ghosts and Xeon. Yeah, so you're telling me a ghost can't handle it a little chocoal. No, they're the they're the warmongers. That's a w yeall Hey, Mark from Arizona, love you baby, that's a w take it to the bank, acons, I yes, I hate to say. The surveys in Christall is going to take this episode. Yeah, it's fine, listen, it's fine. Everything's fine.

1:32:36 I'm fine, how are you? I? I just want to go back to the aesthetics. It is funny, a fun and interesting fact, because of the aesthetics and the very clear like Nazi regalia. Uh, this episode was banned in Germany. Sure, yeah, so they wouldn't show it there. Uh. I think the Second World War they were like, hey, uh, what if we didn't do any of that, Michael as opposed to America, which would be like, yeah, I guess our side loss, but like let's keep reliving. Yeah, let's make sure that we keep all of the Confederate flags up right right. Yeah, so they they just didn't. Yeah, I imagine they could show it today, but that isn't interesting. It is about the visuals there, and I do I just to go back to what you're saying for Kenny, like the it is so obvious even without a lot of the uh the word usage, right, Like, without a lot of the rhetoric, Like, it's still very obvious what is happening here. These are Nazis. It is like, yes, it's like Starship Starship Troopers. It's so interesting that they're saying Nazi Like meanwhile they're bouncing around with swastikas. They're Nazi Nazis. It is exclusively, exclusively, not in fact, to the point where it's just like this guy he came in and he was like, yeah, uh, by the way, I just want to call out that. Uh this dude whose spock has been like oh

1:34:12 yeah, he has a total understanding of like actions and consequences. This dude was like, yeah, what if I came in and introduced an authoritarian regime and didn't think about what could happen, which, from there I think comes off, Oh I have something say about that in a minute, but oh my god, I think it comes up as tired, tired in nineteen sixty eight, but like now, yeah, the internet is right with a whole bunch of rights, being like hey, trains ran on time, trans ran right, right, you're right. Oh yeah. There's a grain podcast that's a noiser podcast goes into like an insane like seventy hours on Hitler and that whole thing, And absolutely there's like moments where they talk about it in hours on Hitler. It's a it's one episode, it's called one episode. It's called one episode that's seventy hours long. Apostrophe, Hitdler, Hitler, No but and they talk about it like that, and there's moments where like, well, you know, sometimes like he could lead the things where people were like this is working. They were making money, bread is being made, and I and there, but the thing that was driving wild in the show, and I know that this is a trope of the Vulcans, and I know this was an attempt to find a foil to captain Kirk in that like Kirk is the impulsive, heart felt you know, like you know, look at the bright side of things, maybe we'll figure this out, kind of

1:35:44 gumption guy. And then so this way, Leonardy Boy could be the foil to that. But there were so many times in this episode where I'm like that that's not even really that logical, Like it's like it's like logical on like the basest level of logical. Like he did the thing with bones as you and he says, you know, the logical thing would do you to point your toe downwards and then push you pull your shoe up. I'm like, you know, that's not logically, you're just like describing how to put on a tight shoe. And then he did the same thing with uh, the idea of fascism, and he's like, logically, it makes sense that this one and you're like, I mean, yes, but logically, you know the history, so you know, that logically, the inevitable result of that path is this, like it always is this, as you should know from your battle with Romulans for ages. Whoopsie, what's that? That's another reference to Star Trek that I knew. I'm just saying, I'm putting it out there. Can he looks like you're having a spiritual experience. Ketty's doing his own version of the Vulcan salute, and I a lot it three points as you were talking, he just kept raising a finger at a time, and it was so clear that he was just like, oh wait, you just said another thing. Second point three things point number one, Star Trek.

1:37:06 You can tell that Star Trek has ran by uh, white dudes like me says that white dudes, because they're like, I know that barbarians are stupid and terrible, but like much respect, Like this is this is a running motif in the original series. Frequently they will be like, I know that they slaughtered entire races, Like, but what if they didn't just do that one? But like what a noble warrior that they are. Oh my god, it happened if only they hadn't done that one bait the idea right, which goes back to the backpat on liberalism. That is just ripe through all of Star Trek. Yeah. Yeah, point number two, you and two and three go in tandem, Michael. So Mike, get ready for this, not as when you can tune out, I can leave. Yeah.

1:37:57 Uh, but point number two. Spock is the smartest guy in the room most every time. Hold on, hold on, hold on. He didn't even know that, Michael Kirk back for hours. Michael, you haven't heard point number three yet, transminders didn't you haven't. You have to realize that Spock is a smug little bit. He has a smug old bitch. Sounds familiar, Kenneth Kendall. Because Spock is sassy. Spock tells jokes. He's got a dry sense of humor. He does tells a good jokes.

1:38:38 There is a good joke in there. Because this episode is the Kirk Spock chemistry in this app is like off the chart, next level. The banter in this episode is so good, which is wild because, Asmin can confirm, I think this second half of this sceneson of original series has been kind of weak sauce. It's been a week sass, but it's been week sauce. On the the Niemoy Shatner because Shatner started feeling like Nimoy was stealing his spotlight, so there was less. There was less Spock. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. Uh, but this episode, like everything is working totally together. I mean, Leonard Nimoy literally calls Shatner a Nazi and it's the best. He says, you look pretty good in that hat, and he's like a bo He basically does like a you should make a quite convincing Nazis when one of the Nazis is interrogating Spock and says you're not a za onto, which Spock dryly goes obviously right his uneral sassy fans there.

1:39:46 I mean, like I said, the helmet, taking off the helmet. I mean, listen, I'm not saying Leonard dmoy is not giving at all, because he's giving big time. I'm just saying the logical stuff got a a little bit much when he was condescendingly teaching Bones how to put on a type. That's because he's sassy and he loves being sassy. This is this is also that's also the Spock Bones relationship for what it's worth, which is when it's the three of them together. It's like fireworks. They all are fucking don't worry about it. It's fun. It's yes, yes, But but I am with you. If this is what I'm hearing, I get so annoyed at like the logical vulcan kind of thing, because I'm like, it's illogical. Everything you're talking about igical. But he said, the thing about the like this is, you know, technically this is a good idea of like you know every part of this history, and you're like, this is technically a good idea, it's not. It's because a good idea ends good, right exactly, A good idea could would not be stoking the flames murder, yeah, of xenophobia and racism, like you know, that's that's would be. That would be a bad we call a bad idea.

1:41:02 That's a bad idea. It's a bad idea. So therefore it's not logical as fog, you absolute dickhead. You're fucking skinty dig Still, he's hot, he's so hot. Later on, he's hot when he's got the bandana, when he's chasing after whales. I said, how spoilers, spoilers, I do know about the whales? Is it as good as box? Do you rag? Come on? How you ever ask you that? Aspen? How you go ever ask you that? If it's better than tu bc? Word a do rag? Wait you're talking about you're talking about Voyager. Wait wait a second, wait a second, wait a second, wait a second wait wait sorry wait it's a logical it's wait just wait wait a second.

1:42:00 Tupac Tuvac. Yeah, you want to talk about ice sock. That's that's where he's subtle. We got we got the only black guy and a billion light years. His name rides with Tupac and let's keep it. We need a black Vulcan name. You've only got five seconds. Go great, go print Can and druck love Mark Piggy Wiggy, Yeah, Wiggy Vulcan should have taken an extra day or two. He uh, he's not all he's sly half Fulcan we love Wiggy? Though? We love Wiky? We loved him.

1:42:56 He was great. Originally that character on starts Voyager was and you can find in an early script the original name was Steve orkell Uh I believe it was pronounced or col No. That was whenever he went through the machine, when he went to the the holid deck all right, so patterns of Force. Uh, I got one last thing. I got one last thing, because this goes back to, uh, the beauty of finding it again or finding like never seeing this right. And I think this kind of also connects to Aspen's love of The Phantom Menace, which was like it was new and fresh and all that. When I watched this, this was new and fresh to me, and I loved that Shatner was Shatner like it was very it's like, oh, the things that he talks and the way it was like it was a thing that you always if you've ever watched it, you could do a Shatner from the millions of people that do Shatner, but you don't.

1:44:04 You always like that's that's you know, playing it up. It's not really that way. And then I watched this episode and I was like, oh, it is that way. It's one hundred percent that think the oh, the the you know, he's a vampire apparently, but they did, they did. Those shirts were off for way longer than they needed today. There was a part in that where it was Shanna clothed and Spock unclothed for a long time, and I typed, I wrote in uh, instead of CFNM, which is a porn acronym for closed female nude man, I wrote C S and S and I was like, yes they want that, Yes, close shut nude, and it was for me interesting that does not call Kirk nudes bock mist. I have been interchangeable on both of them this whole time. Certainly they are real to me only in that they are not real.

1:45:19 So I loved it. I love that Shatner was like, very Shatner. Very. It works, it works, it totally fun. It doesn't work out of context. But also Star Trek would not be Star Trek if Shatner's theatricality. Yes, what we've been distractingly doing this the entire time. Sorry, it's okay. Just so you know, listeners of the world, I'm gonna say America, but I know that we have one homie in astronam asked and I have a thing in our like cameras that if you put the proper gestures up, it makes like a little bubble with a thumbs up.

1:46:08 It'll give you balloons, it'll give you fireworks like coming down. And every single time that Kenny has read a memo from from a corporate entity, we have just been doing that in the background. I'm sorry, love you, love you, Kenny, Please donate us. Why didn't I get these effects? Oh? I got fireworks? Why do you get the effects? And I don't get the effect? They got new new cameras, new new things, all right, lightning round real quick? The red the red marks, come on, come on, I don't I didn't like it. I didn't like it the marks. I like the green marks. I thought that was cool, it was clever. I didn't like the red marks. V for Vendetta. That was the thing that I felt when they was doing the furor like thing. It felt very V for Vendetta. E. If you guys remember that, you mean like, oh, like it was a big screen like when there's a big screen thing, and it was not him actually talking, which is like something they do in the movie for V for Vendetta.

1:47:23 Uh? What else is there? Right? Uh? That's it? I got something else? Oh? Is that it? No? There was something else. Oh? I don't know why it was that I wrote why can't Kirk Look? Does anybody know what that would be? I don't know what I would mean. No, Oh, I did write I love the idea and Kenny, I know you're gonna talk about this, so I'll i'll push it to you. I love the way that they took down the furor or like that it was uh, like you said, it wasn't Kirk coming in and punching him. It was them kind of removing the Wizard of Ossie and curtain from it, and then it being like everybody, even though it was a little quick, everybody's like, well, we've been lied to you this whole time. This is all bs. I actually hate that. I hate That's my only thing I didn't like was because it is too simple, like because it assumes that the only, uh, the only thing keeping this going was just one man manipulating people as opposed to praying off of and building up real fears that exist within people. And so the idea that you could just be like, well here's the truth and everyone would be like, oh yeah, that's right. And I do think the episode they are like, we need to now continue this work. Just because we revealed this guy doesn't mean that like it's over now. I think it's quite as studid the episode to not lay all the blame on John Gill but instead this lieutenant. Why this

1:48:58 episode could have and both are guilty. And also, if this episode were worse, there would have just been one bad d that they would have had to dispatch, and it would have been John gild the disgraced Starkweight scientists, And instead it goes, no, John gil is guilty, he's culpable, but also he's a figurehead for this guy who is manipulating the situation in order to get what he wants. And then in the for an, I find it perhaps this is patronizing. I find it remarkably astute, especially considering the whizbang nature of this episode and kind of the lackluster quality of this second half of this season. It could have been a lot worse, but instead I find it just remarkably astute as opposed to simplistic. I thought it was very I mean, I think it's it's it's thoughtful, and I don't and I don't hate it. I think I do think you're right that it suffers from end of the episode itis. Well, I I just think that there's something for us to consider in that we can also very easily blame a populous leader or figurehead as opposed to really being like let's turn internally to be like, what is my complicity in this like that I'm not that I am not only or not only just complicit, but like actively engaging and like, you know, hurting other people. That so leads me into this quote from James Dewan, who plays Scotty who fought against the Axis Armies in World War Two,

1:50:32 and he said, during this episode, all I could think about was how gullible the German people were. They were sucrated to Hitler, and some of them loved it. There will always be those who appeal to the worst instincts in humanity. Yeah, right, But I almost feel like keeping gullible like gets like lets people off easily, you know what I mean. Like I'm gonna I'm gonna take the looking at it through the lens of just the fact that they had this one episode because I agree with you obviously in a much larger sense, they could have done a lot more to like make that like ownership. But I thought the fact that the girl in there was kind of that representative of like we do bad. I don't like this anymore. I'm gonna turn I'm gonna flip sides. Yeah, And the other guy, Enig, I'm gonna say his name is Enig yes at the very end and again this is all, this is why and not like this, it all wrapped up so quickly. He has one line that he says to the rebel without a Cause, and he says like, while the rebel press is like, now we will now we will work to you know, we build our society whatever he's like, and we shall help as well, which I think was them saying we've got seven seconds to do this. So that's our version of we fucked it up to uh sure, but but I agree that in a bigger world it would have been done better. I just liked that it wasn't

1:52:03 what Kenny was referring to, which was Captain Kirk gets in there and says, snap out of it, your old dumb dumb pow yeah, and then he and then it's like I'm snapped out of it and then everything is like fine, you know, like and then he's like, oh, I don't I was brain controls or whatever, what would it could have been. I like that it was like, now that dude had to die because it's dummy. Yeah, he made dangerous choices, made a logical choice. He made a very sorry it was very logical, completely logical choice and because of that logic, he needed to die right and then then it would it ended the episode. I liked that they were like, oh no, he needed to die, and also we need to see some demu mode of like these people like saying, now we've got to work together. And then I love it at the very end after uh, Captain Kirk watches his mentor and I will die after a culture of society damn near killed him and also sensibly probably killed millions of aliens. Together. They get on the thing and Bones and Spock have a little stat and he says, I listened to we shouldn't have another He's whatever. He's like, quiet down, we don't want another civil war on this ship, Dewey, And they're like, no, you're right, and checkouts like let's get out of here, and they like sip off.

1:53:31 Yeah yeah. I was like that is always the perfect Star Trek thing, every horribleness and like, oh you guys, quit it. These bad boys classic, Wow, we did it? Do we do it? We did it? Well, We're not done. What the fuck? Don't you take my walk lighter and climb it? Don't you take my red schord, buddy? And then if you spill the tea. I'm gonna sip it. Starship. All right, let's start this. So what what you gonna do? I told you a little bit about that because I was like, be thinking about this. I think I already know your answers. Uh, We're gonna do our favorite starship like the ones that fly through space, or vehicle or favorite vehicle of choice, any kind of thing. We had to do vehicles because he walks it don't have starships, could be any vehicle. And then your favorite romantic ship relationship, which can be anyone and it can be from either property or both. Right, Okay, am I going? This is my turn. I we'll start with the starships. I want to go first because I want to take everybody's answer from them. And it is the Queen Ship from the Phantoms spoil Boy. That is spoil Boy to me, the best ship in all all of us star Wars. I love it so much.

1:55:06 But also I'm taking this from Kenny because so it's the Nabu Royal Starship, just so you know, it's a modified J Type three twenty seven Nubian starship. So it's a royal starship. Of course, the Queen Amidala crazy I know that's a fun and but it's like Nubian instead of like should have been like Nabuoian. You know. Again, it's like poetry. So if they rhyn so it's beautiful. It's like it's shiny, it's perfection. It cuts through the air, through space like I had back when I was little. They I think it was like a McDonald's toy where you could get this in the happy Mail and it would be one of those things where it would balance on your finger, and it was the Naboo starship. But I just sit there with it balanced on my finger. So I love it. It's a gorgeous ship. That's fine. It is a gorgeus ship. That's a beautiful Can I go yes? So I said, I knew you were going to take that ship because you had said that you were going to take it.

1:56:09 You are not subtle, and that is a thing that Kenny likes and he's a fan of. So I was prepared for this, okay. And my choice is the Gungan submarine ship that they all would they have to travel through the planet with. And the reason being that I like this is because aside from I think and I may be right or wrong on this, but aside from the the whatever Naboo fighter ship, which is whatever we see in the Mandalorian and all that stuff, right, I think it's the only other one that we physically see them getting in and out of. And I love that like that. It's like an app it's not a digital thing. It's not like a thing when it come out of the water, when they've come through the other side of the planet, Liam Nice Yeah, and the guy who should have been Liam Nice Obi Wan Kenobi come out of that and they hang out and they're like hop it out of this thing. And it was so cool to me because it was real. It was like it fell real like the old school ships that we would see where they would actually have it.

1:57:30 I might be wrong. I think I don't think they we see like we see them inside of it in the Queen Ship, but I don't think we see it like a big physical and we see like the little like gangplank. But I don't know that we see them like taptilely messing with it the way that they do on the Gungan. I had to just look it up right now by the way mark from Arizona, and it's the Gungan Bungo submarine, a bungo. I'm just gonna get it on a bongo. You get a little bunk bell. Yeah, yeah, calls it. Oh my god. They're like, there's sentences that they said that I didn't know were being said until I had something. Nobody would Nobody would. It's it's so offensive that you you shut your ears out a little little bit just to protect yourself.

1:58:16 The other one would be the USS Enterprise, but you know that you can't say it. It's already you can't repeat, which is no Mike Star Trek kind of hard because it feels like, uh, that's a little bit biased to Star Wars. But okay, yeah, well it wasn't for a long time. Let me tell you, Oh, I have another and I really like it too. But to you, well, I'm glad that neither one of you took mine, because there is one answer, a very clear answer, and I'm very glad that none of you stupid idiots took it. It's the Naboo and one star Fighter you named it, but it wasn't yours.

1:58:58 It sounds like I would say that driving the Starfighters a lot like pod racing, would you agree, m No, that is pod racing. It is follow up question, have you tried spinning in it? That is a good trick. I've never tried it. I am scared of that. I don't like those guys of chicks. I absolutely love the esthetic that is used for Nabu spaceships, marketing back to the classic perception of spaceships prior to Star Awards, which then kind of recategory well really before two thousand and one, which yeah, it started to bring it more into the industrialized world that we used as opposed to these beautiful art Deco type starships of the Yeah, thirty and forty cereals rights and that's what I heard, like it was all designed off of the old thirties and forties cars that were coming out of that era.

2:00:00 The sleek look of it, and it makes total sense. It looks great. It's it's absolutely gorgeous, extremely simple, clean designs. Yeah, and then yellow as a starfighter, what a wild collar pick. It's great. But also that goes in tandem with Lucas's filmography, specifically the Harrison Ford's little yellow coop that he drags around in American A little yellow coop, I can I can I throw in a like a side one just just for funzies, just because I'm not gonna put it well, no, I have to put it on spreadsheet. I love Buba's pod. It's not a ship, which is why I didn't use that, but the ship, the speeder, the the sound is like I love the sound of bas pod so much that if it was a starship I would have used that one. You could and you could. You could use it too. We'll cotch. Okay, my gosh, so it's the best. Well, what else do you love?

2:01:19 I also love romantic ships and I do have one, and that ship is You're gotta do it. You gotta steal mine. You fucking no, I'm not. It's Qui gon jin and obi wan can Okay, fascinating? Have I know? Did I not do that the last time I did this? No, we've got no results, at least according to the spreadsheets for a starship. There's It's not my particular fan fiction of choice, but there's so much fan fiction about these two, like a clear uh sort of relationship type of thing of like, you know, it's great, a mentormentee. I just want to throw it out there as an ideal ship. It's okay, pass it all. That's where a why going. Okay, I need it for some reason. I thought you would have taken this. No, my ship that I am shipping on, the Starship Enterprise, is inank and the rebel without a cause himself. Iack those huge leader boys coming together working late nights to figure out out as resolve the dirty civil war that they had just embraced. They hated each other at first, they were mortal enemies, but then they realized they had been incorrect this whole time, and they realized that

2:02:56 their mission and goal is to build up the Xeon's and the other ones that getting made up the name of enemy still lovers, Yes, and I think those two together are the true relationship of Star Trek. That's what it's all about. It's not about It's not about sassy bones and spot bullshit. Yes it is. It's about No, it's I'm tired of it. Okay, I'm tired of the negging. You're tired of it. This is your first episode the spot sick, all right. The only time I like to neg is when I'm watching Rogue one and I'm browing out with my bros and I'm looking at a girl walking by the say you're not as pretty as you think you are. Rogue One's a war movie. That's it. That's it.

2:03:43 So okay, rebel without a cause and Enig the rebel with the cause. Yeah, Palpatine and Mal see another mentor men see relationship. I think that's a toxic relationship. Guys, both of you. That's leadership. You act like Maul doesn't like to be carted around on a little all the time, or she she could be the one of the leads. It's make no mistake, is very consensual, and it is very rough. Yeah, listen, chips can be whatever you want them to. That's why we have little trigger warnings before things like non con and stuff. All right, I'll give you.

2:04:28 I mean, y'all have your opinions. I think there's a reason that Mall is so good with that double bladed lightsaber. You talk about some of that's good with a pole. Oh you're getting dirty, you're getting dirty. I don't like that. I like it. Say more about it. He says, it's slower and deeper. He sings out. Probes, God, I don't know if that was deeper. He gets cut in half. He gets I love it. Here's my thoughts on it. Here's why I think it's a little toxic. Okay, She instantly bounces to a new one in milliseconds. He's got a dooku in the back room ready to go for whenever.

2:05:15 That mall is spitting half and it's just not I feel like we's got a venturess that he can just dump. But that's for the future. Okay, all right, we did it. We got one more thing we gotta do. Did you know the song from Joel No? I wish I know it is time to bring this ship back into the dock or to the hangar. If we're going by dock stuff you dirty birdy, stop dorking, get out of here, sit down, sit down, or speaking of dirty birds, I think we need to go back to the original conceded this podcast, which is better Star Trek or Star Wars as we rank again once again Star Trek the original series patterns of fours versus Star Wars Episode one, The Phantom Menace. So Michael, just so you know, it's out of ten zero to ten, okay, and you can give like it's like points, like it could be like six point three, eight point nine, Like you can do it that way. It doesn't have to just be like a round number.

2:06:31 Got it, so you can be as grand so excited for the points system I hate I like it, right, but I did like getting to be more thoughtful about it. Yeah, demonstrate? Oh no to demonstraight, I have to demonstraight? Okay? Which one am I starting with phantom menace? Sure? What have I given it before? I think I've given it like a six before six something? According to the spread, you've given it a six point five. That's like still true for me? All right? Once again? Maybe a six point four four? It dropped this time. Wait a minute, so even after I convinced you that Obi Wan should have been the Qui Gon character, you're still at its mass. That's why it drops the point when a lot of work I put into that for a point of dot yeah talking doing all right, do you want to be pad a force or so? I am going to rank it for a point seven because like it's not good like kind of you know I I have been trying to give it some grace. This movie I really have in the sense of like I can see why a person would love it when they this is the first

2:08:07 Star Wars they were seen. I could see why there's parts of it like again, the pot race is always so fun. The sound is beautiful, the imagery is really fun. But then you know there's jar jar yeah, and there's you know, really dry dead dialogue that is really hard to listen to. No offense to the kid. I know Jack Lloyd got a lot of hate for this, but if you just watched the film absent of the minutia around it, you're like, this isn't a good kid actor, and this is not a good you know, director, like you were saying, Kenny. So it's tough for me to give this movie grease after all this year. So I give it a ten ten point nine, say ten point nine, with Michael's ten point nine, asked the six point four and my four point seven. That gives us a collective total of seven points. Good job, Phantom, good movie. That's a that's a that's a reasonably good movie. Better than got Father three. I do it was I was thinking about how if, if, like what not to go off? I don't want to go down a rabbit hole on this. I give it. I

2:09:37 give it a two point eight already put ten point nine? Ten oh, thanks two point eight? Is it a ten point nine or two point eight? Which one do you want ten point nine? It's ten point all right? An agent of chaos truly. I was thinking, like, what would it look like if someone like Spielberg had directed Jake Floyd, Like if it would have been a bad performance, like someone who's really good, I think it would have been. I think Spielberg has the wherewithal to recalibrate something based on an actor's strengths, right, Yeah, and I think I don't know, give Jake Lloyd more physicality, more looking at things, yeah, more like also like there's like even calls out that, like his emotional scenes with his mother are actually really beautiful. Yeah, but then in others he kind of would fall flat, and so it's yeah, like pay attention to those things. Yeah. But Lucas just doesn't have that because for him, actors have always been a means to an end ever since HX one with three eight.

2:10:48 Yeah, but we're not talking about George Lucas anymore. We're talking about Patters of Forest and Aspen. Yeah. Hmmm mm hmm, seven point six, seven point say, why not excellent? I've said a lot. I liked it, yeah, and I thought it was really solid. I think it's very present. I think you know, unlike sometimes things really emotionally hit me. I don't know. Also, maybe if it were in a different part, like if it were in a different season or be like, you know, it's been kind of bluff so far, and maybe this stands out really well. So that's why I'm like giving a little bit higher than I would have maybe in the context of another series, you know, so like series of episodes. But that's what I'm feeling right now. I'm going to give this episode an eight. I think it's a great episode of Star Trek.

2:11:37 Yeah. Uh, it just is. Maybe it's great. It's thoughtful, yeah, yeah, it gives me all the Star Trek things that I want. The chemistry he's unreal between Kirk AND's Bock and this episode, so it's outstanding. Yeah, you're right, Michael, Yeah, yeah, okay, excuse me, Okay, I like what you're saying. And for me, since this was my first like original series episode, I really genuinely anything could happen right now. It's true. I really, I really dug the I dug the vibe of it. It felt like what I had hoped an original series episode would be, which is a little bit of kitsch, a little bit of like bad costuming, a little bit of clear sets, but a little bit of like we're trying our best to send a message in nineteen sixty whatever, what ear was it, Kenny sixty sixty eight. And it's like, so I love that, I loved William Shatter. I'm all in.

2:12:46 That is my captain from now on. He is, he is, I am on the I'm on the ship. And you know that moment where the Somalian says I'm the captain. Now, I wouldn't say it. I'd say you're still the captain to the Captain Kirk. I'm not saying I'm a Similian. I'm not saying I'm gonna take over shit. I'm just saying, if that scenario was in somehow me gonna deliver that line, I would have said, you're still the captain, mister Kirk, you are great at this sounds like something a pirate would say. Well, yeah, that's funny that you say that, because I'm about to take away some doaballoons. Because I didn't think Spock was great. I didn't like I loved Spock, and I didn't like him. I didn't think his logical shit was fucking logical. I didn't think his skinny body got me hot in my loins, and I didn't want it. If I want hot my loins, I want him eating a sandwich or two prior to set. I want him to give me less attitudes sometimes and then give me a whole hot mess of that dirty looks on the side eye. It is going to happen. So here's here's my thoughts on it. Here honestly, honest, score, honest Huh, here we go.

2:14:11 Uh it was it win to ten? Huh? You could rank it a zero if you want to. Yeah, Okay, I give it seven. Uh, hail fearers, it's not I can't put that on this shot. You can't put another thing. No, it's got to be a number. Okay, I can't put seven fars that seven is a but that's a completely usually it's like a point system. Okay, seven hers, that's a whole new ranking system. I apologize, and I look, I can test the spreadsheets already really involved. I give it nine red last sheets. That's not again, that's a brand new spreadsheet that going to happen. It's got to be based on the pre existing it's got to be nine points. I can do points I can do seven points. We can give you points and that's about it. That's it, all right. I give it three transponders.

2:15:03 That's not I can't do that. I converted, all right. I give it all right. I give it one, John Gil, that doesn't make sense what you're saying. He is the fure, he is the future. I can't give it. I give it an. I give it about. I give it a. I give it. I don't know. I liked it. I liked it. I do it. Listen to your heart, I liked it. I give it a. I give it a nine point eight, incredible, nine point eight. You truly do love to say it. I'm gonna raise mine a little bit seven point eight because I was. I was so fresh to this and it was so fun to watch that I genuinely did not think I would want to watch this, and I did.

2:15:48 I'm having I'm so delighted. The last time someone who had really not watched a lot watch had to watch had to watch a startic episode. I think it was Heidi. She was just like, I fucking hate it. I mean, it could have been the episode. It could an episode of prior, could have been a different story. But it was Galley of seven, a classic episode of Star Trek. It was really good. Oh no, what did they give it? Then gave it a five? Which to fair Looking at these rankings, all three of us were kind of low on it. Well that's also this is like I feel like we go through waves of how we like prefer to these things. Yeah, because to give it one Gill Gill, and I feel that's like maximum numbers. Okay, So according to okay, if nine point eight is Michael's score, that means that one John Gill is equal to nine point eight points. So now there's a conversion system that I can work off of. Kenny, what's the what's the what's the score? Who won? Who was? Uh? Speaking of scoring, I think both all three of us scored with both properties tackling the encroaching UH tendrils that are the rise of fascism. Yes, both of these properties are examining the rise of fascism, the complications that resolve in vastly different ways.

2:17:09 America. There's nothing more American than ranking two things and so too Wurst episode one, with a collect a total of seven point three three versus Pantas of Forces Aggressive eight point five three, which means Kenny and Star Trek have won the weeks. I'm a lis there baby, So why don't you and I didn't even know that you guys were battling in this way? And I love it. Yeah, I'm so happy that you guys are battling and I try to bump up Phantom Menace for you. I appreciate it. I had to answer truthfully for what it's worth. Last time we did Phantom Menace, it was versus Star Trek, the motion picture and the phantomnas one. Yeah, and I can see that. I agree with that. I ranked Phantom Menace higher than the motion picture on that. Yes, I agree with it.

2:18:07 The motion picture a classic sleepy time honkshoo king movie for me back in high school, honkshoo me me. So there you go. We did it. We we certainly did. But even though with this gargantulaly sized episode, certainly this isn't the end of Trek Wars, not nearly by a long shot. Uh. If you want even more, you could listen to an extended version of this very episode even longer here on trek War. You could hop over to patreon dot com slash Trak Wars Pod, where we do communicate with our listeners, and we've got a little bit of correspondence this week, Oh from the fondly named here Too for now Arizona. Mark Mark Vibert co hosted the Hold Home Maneuver in regards to our return of the Jedi Special Edition versus Return to Tomorrow episode uh. Mark asks the question have either of us ever read Animorphs because he kept thinking about the years during our discussion of aliens that take over the mind? Now read Animorphs? Yes, history with the Animals franchise. I actually I haven't really read them. Maybe I read one, but I would watch the show and I am deathly terrified of the idea of anything going into my brain, it through my ear and taking me over because of Anamorphs, and absolutely terrified. Interesting take. I've also, I've watched it. My favorite is Wacko. No, that's Animaniacs. Oh, drastically

2:19:41 different. That's a very different property. I remember when Tobias turned into a hawk and then he stayed a hawk too long? Yeah, it happened, and so he just became a hawk. So he just became a hawk and later on, yeah, yeah, later on he could like kind of turn back into a guy. It was the whole thing, yes, and so thank you for that. Arizona Mark. We love you Mark, who is also running the Whole Do Maneuver Imperial March Bracket Imperial March Madness Bracket over on their YouTube channel. I helped see that it is true chaos over there, true and it is so much fun. You can go just look up the Whole Do Maneuver podcast on YouTube, and if you're interested in free episodes or at free episodes this very podcast, hop over to patreon dot com slash track coarse pot and you too could join the auspices of fine folks such as Timbo De Sosa and Emilie Brice, Love, Heidi Rogers, Kevin Miller, Arizona, Mark right Hill, Aaron Science and lastly, but certainly not Leasley Joelty Partner who wrote our starship at Jingle. Thank you so much, Joelty Partner.

2:20:50 We love you, honey. We can't wait for dinner. I hope that's on the table for us. It's so there's some He brought me back some fries. I made myself some eggs, and Joel just looks at you with like a mouthful of fries, and he was like, go a hole grou so it's like a half half filled thing of cold fries. Oh sorry, Joel is so nice, But at the same time I want him to be like I say this not as a pejoritya because it was his descriptor the fat friend from the first three episode of Droids who was just like the biggest guns. It's pretty great. It's pretty great. Uh and Jolty partner is pretty great. Uh. Someone else said it is also pretty great. Is mister Tosin Ali Faso, who wrote our Trek Wars theme song, Thank you so much? Uh, the usual calls to action at the end of many podcast episodes. If you haven't done so already, please leave us a five star rating by hopping over to trek warspod dot com, clicking on the reviews tab, and going to the podcatcher of your choice. We try and make it easy, honey. We care about We love you. We just want to much like Michael's relationship to Leonard meamemway, we just want to make sure that you're eating enough. That's truly it. I feel like a yenta like it was just like, do you need a little bit more before you leave?

2:22:18 Because you need like a soup or something. I don't know, So yeah, Michael, do you have stuff? Yes? Do you want to? Like? Oh? Boy? Do? I? Okay, so here we go. Uh. First off, watch Animatacs the season one and season two. It's solid gold. Also, if you're out there and you're busy, but you have some like just like background stuff you want to listen to. I think you should totally watch Legends of the Hidden Temple. It is so fun. Do you just sit there and do you watch these kids fumbling and fumbling? No other projects you participate with regularly that you could use this platform? Yeah? Yeah, But also no, no, no, no, no, I don't do anything of value. You don't do this is This is the This is the most this is the most valuable thing I've ever done. This is it. This is truly the height. I finally have proven that Phantom Menace is worse than a random episode. It's math, it's science, it's logical. Michael, thank you so much for hopping on board the It was the best three hours of my life. I know. And Kenny, now you be gone and you clean up that dirty microphone covered in your own Jedi music. I like this sounds like it's time Michael, I

2:23:54 love you, I love you too. What else do I say? I love I love you so much, Ketty, I love you so much. You need to unpack that with your therapist later. Aspen. I love you, I love you, I love Michael too. I love you. Guys, Audience, we sincerely love you. Thank you so much for listening. UH and Aspra always live long and prosper, and may the Force be with you. S