Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith vs. Bread and Circuses

0:27 Welcome to the Track Wars podcast. The podcast that tears to answered the one question, the most important question fandom, which is better Star Wars or Star Trek by going through both franchises in chronological police order and today the saga concludes as we talk about Star Wars episode three, Revenge of the Sith Versus Brendon, circuses the penultimate episode in Star Trek the original series, season two. I am Kenny Madison, the Star Trek conting is with me. As Per always is the girl host with the my house. It's me Aspen Webster, the Star Wars fish. I'm not now No one should ever. No, I don't know why I said that. Everyone's gonna be like, you don't know that guy was on because she who was head sitting behind a boulder.

1:18 I'll be like, what I mean, you know who embarrassed Ophie is and that's an edge up on me, Aspen. Oh well, that's why we make fun of you the royal way, my friends. That's weird. You're talking about podcast with other people. Uh huh oh, my girl, I'm like, oh, was like on the podcast? Can he doesn't know this character he's literally never met? Isn't that so embarrassing, like, oh my god, oh no, it wasn't on corne Wars. Yeah, actually you should know Bears. Yep, she is she, She and Luminar are Indeed, they're the ones that get they have to be rescued there in the the temple that gets brought down. Yeah. Wow, turntables have turned. Yeah, it sounds like you should be embarrassed for not knowing. You should be ambarrassed. But please don't throw me to the gladiators in the TV studio arena has just yet asked been We've got too much show to get to. Oh whoa, whoa, whoa whoa? Oh, whoa whoa? Did you know at the end of the episode Bred and Circuses that I just watched just a few hours ago, and the very last line of the episode, I went, excellent, wonderful, That's exactly what I wanted. I just walked in.

2:53 Wait wait, wait, why did you just walk in? Joel? You never do this? Oh no, you want to speak into the microphone, Joel, Oh I never do this. Oh my god, I can't hear you kidding. I'm sorry, I can't hear you, but it just occurred to me. Maybe I'll already mention this Why the fuck do they speak English? Hey? Wait, you can talk now, Giddy, you can hear you. Uh. First off, my heart is racing at the fact that a Jolty partner is here. Hold on, I gotta you gotta do the sound effect real quick, making his yearly appearance on the main feed, which I'm pretty pleased with. The reason that they talk English is because no one ever points it out unless they do. They do in the episode does He's like, oh my god, they speak English, Joel, you did let me finish hunting? Okay, sorry, sorry, because no one asked that question until Gene Coon is like, yeah, why do they uh speak English all the time? Except that the show has canonically answered that there's a universal translator that just exists. Yeah, it's already answered the question. But then sometimes this stupid show that is my favorite thing on the planet, it was just like, huh, they're talking English. No one's asking your question?

4:16 All right, Yeah, does that answer your question? To your satisfaction, a mister t partner, it answers my question. I am not satisfied. Interesting, how are there any other clarifications that can Why are they answering English? Because it's it's it's a freaking fantasy. What do you want. There's no in universe reason why they would be, is all I'm saying. Because everything's printed in English in the episode as well in the magazines. Oh and they applause buttons, and they'll like the cheers and cheers and the everything's in English. Well, I guess they'd have the Roman alphabet and even the pun at the end, Son and Son is in fucking English. Bi.

5:00 Yeah, okay, sorry for breaking in. Goodbye, always going Chell, talk to you again this time next year. I love you, Kenny, love you too, Buddy behind, I love you, of course, I love you. That was joelty partner who you can last listen to on our Stargate SG one versus Battlestar Glogica episode around April three was April Fools. Just the other day, he was like, I'm so sorry I didn't do another April Fools episode this year. I'm just a little stressed. I was like, oh no, you're it's fine, buddy, It's okay, thank you.

5:45 So yeah, that's good. That's a good cameo. That is a good cameo. It's it's extremely satisfying. I thought he was coming in to be like you stole that. I yelled boo, and I was like, you sure did yell boo? And then I also yelled boo, but he did yelpoo first. I will give him that credit. But what else is satisfying is catching up with people that play the home game, the people that, oh don't can't afford to come to the live shows. Can't afford That's right, it is payapling. So we provide synopsis for folks I might not be watching along with the content as when would you do us the favor of reading us? The synopsis for Star Wars episode three, Revenge of the Revenge of the Sith, which was directed, of course by one George Lucas and written by one George Lucas. Uh, this is funny. There's like a character creation thing whatever. It's written by George Lucas, for better or worse.

6:42 It was released May nineteenth, two thousand and five. Yeah, so, and let's get a little bit of a synapsis here. Nearly three years have passed since the beginning of the Clone Wars. The Republic, with the help of the Jedi, take on Count Dooku and the Separatists with a new threat rising, The Jedi Council sends Obi Wan, Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker to aid the captured Chancellor, who we, as you might recall, saw captured at the end of Clone Wars. All right, yes, I was like, did he get effectually captured? All I remember is griev Is getting tied to a train. Ah. Yes, he was captured at the end of the Colon Wars. This goes right into it. Anakin feels he's ready to be promoted to Jedi Master. Obi Wan is hunting down the separatist general Grievous.

7:34 When Anakin has future visions of pain and suffering coming Padme's way, he sees he seeks master Yoda for council. This is badly written. When's our City of Executes Order sixty six? A des choice? I have to read it different, Like what are you talking about? Ah? Sorry, I don't like this. I should have I should have done this before. I'll just keep reading it. Everybody knows how this movie goes. No, no, no, find another one, find another one. No, I'm gonna I'm gonna do it. No, I'm gonna I'm gonna do it. So he starts seeing future visions of pain and suffering coming Padme's way, seeks Master Yoda for counsel Aspen's commentary, who gives him a shitty fucking answer. Fuck Yoda anyway. So all this time, of course, Palpatine, who we know to be Dark Citius, is getting his plans together. He is able to bring Anakin over to the dark Side by telling him that he could save Pat's life, and ultimately he as Darth Cidius, executes Order sixty six, which is uh, kills all the Jedi, at least the ones that they can find in the meantime. And now from there you have the birth of Darth Vader. Oh my god, feel the betrayal that leads to hatred between two brothers, and witness the power of hope. What the fuck does that mean? It's fine, I'm fine with it. Here. Three years in

9:05 the Clone Wars, Obi Wan pursues a new threat while Anakin is lured uh sorry, while Anakin is larded by child Chancellor Palpatina to a sinister plot to rull the galaxy. That's better. Well, did I did other research? I did? I promise, I just want research the summer you did, and I'll just preemptively do this. You do a science for amunt of research for this episode. I'm proud and you know fresh Curn, Yeah I did sort of yeah, yeah research. I think you might have done more research than I did this week. Maybe I don't know, all right, Uh of course on my end, we have patterns of forts we don't nor Yeah, that's the joke. That's a joke. I ruinedured joke. Fuck.

10:00 I genuinely was, like Kenny just messed up. We have bread and circuses, writers Gene Kohn and Geen Roddenberry, director Ralph Senensky, aired March fifteenth, nineteen sixty eight, from Judy Crosby of her syndicated column The TV Scout, first published March fifteenth, nineteen sixty eight. Star Trek has been vaulting between outer space imagination and backtracking through history. Parenthetical a piece of the action and patterns of forest having aired ferns and parenthetical, which is what it does tonight. This is a Roman orgy of sorts, with the Enterprise depositing its crew on a planet has reached the level of the Roman Empire at its height, where the starship officers are forced at televised gladiatorial combat. This one's loaded with all the elements of a movie spectacle, including slave girls, gladiators, and the deskpot who keep the masses happy by staging these buddy spectacles. Of course, he intends to start Captain Kirk and misters Buck in one of these battles, and also McCoy and McCoy. It ends up, yeah, like famously three of them are there. Famously, I mean the original version of spoilers. It was supposed to be Kirk and Bach, but a mock time had done Kirk and s Bach earlier, and so they were like, and so did the other one, and so did Patterns of Force. I'm so sorry you were so funny. I can't believe I ruined your joke. That's

11:31 okay, I'll let it slide. Yeah, I genuinely thought the reason you did that is because I had texted you while I was watching it, and I specifically said, was this film to four Patterns? Of course, their four Patterns is technically the copy, but this one seems like the copy. That's what I said, because I believe it it was. It was filmed earlier in the season, right, It just was made to be the penultimate episode. I in my book used the Voyage of season two. I've been reading every single chapter except for bredon Circuses Assignment or because this was filmed quitieterly in the thing right, yeah, before all the episodes that before the episodes that are listed just in this synopsis. It's filmed before a piece of the action patterns of course, so these episodes are kind of they should know because Red and Circus is in the chamber and it is held until this point.

12:30 But we're jumping too far ahead, aspen. Just curious, just curious. Uh, have you seen this episode before? Nope? Ah, right, nope, have you seen this episode before? Most definitely. I've been very excited to get to this episode, specifically dispairing of these two things. Oh, it is an interesting As I was watching it, I was like, there's they're interesting parallels and which is wild. For the next three weeks counting this week, we have some very interesting parallels, which is very exciting for the shape of our podcast. Well, question for you, Kendall, have you ever seen have you ever seen Star Wars episode three, Beene of the Sith. Not only have I seen Star Wars episode three Revenge of the Sith, this was actually the first midnight Star Wars, but I was so fortunate to attend. My dad took me to it at the AMC South Roads twenty in Tulsa, Oklahoma, midnight, May nineteen, two thousand and five, and I remember loving it, and then I remember a palpable sense of being like wow after the movie was done, driving back to our home at two thirty three o'clock in the morning, being like, wow, Star Wars is done. Four four epper coming back a Lucas dead. At Meanwhile, George Lucas was already planning to do a Star Wars Clone Wars TV show by any

14:01 means necessary. Yeah, he was like, you'll never escape me my little art movies. What yeah, I'll go bank up Star Wars the Clone Wars episodes with I'll make Star Wars Detours. Is Is he truly making little films for himself that we will never see in living his best life? Do we think? Mm hmm? Okay. I thought maybe you knew. I thought maybe you hung out with him. No, I do not. I'm trying to popular belie. George Lucas is not one of my hangs. Oh yeah, I thought so. You always talk about him like he's a bestie.

14:46 No, no, it's just a parasocial relationship. Oh wow, Okay, well I got my face. I just right. I loved this movie. I love to the prequels because I was just at the right age, because I was also excited to participate in the stories that the film people that I grew up reading we're talking about, and the stories that my dad was talking about, and just being like Star Wars is the best, and I got my own Star Wars with these and I got to I got to finally participate with the midnight shows that I knew had always existed, but I just wasn't able to go to until this one where my dad took me so exciting.

15:37 And then not only that, this movie, I don't know, I don't know if you know this. Oh probably not, Kenny, what what this movie is? Dark as hell? Oh my god, it's like like it's like a violent and VI whoa, Like wow, this is like it's like Star Wars for grown ups. You know, maybe Age'm so sick of so sick a thing where George that I'm so sick of like this kid proper day George Lucas has been like I wanted to do superheroes and space for kids, from the beginning, and he's constantly being like this for kids. And even though people are like but like there's boring politics, Like yeah, even like the first twenty minutes of this movie, you're still like have some like shenanigans.

16:22 It's like really fucking funny. Get get rid of it. Sorry, So don't remember when R two G two just spilled out a shit done oil so li lit, Android's on fire. So dark, so dark, so dark? Oh you know whatever, you know. Whenever Chancellor Palpatine like the dark Lord of the Sith and has been manipulating government and fascism. At any point he starts, he goes, you do it. I did like that part he goes he goes do it because he's so excited about the sword fight that's happening. And he's even he an evil MOCKI bell he villain. It's just like, you know, short fight. My name she Palpatine. I sure, Hey, everybody, I'm from the Little playing the Napoo. I'm just here to play a little seng for you. But that us clowning on the darkness is one of the reasons why I loved it, because it gives me the perception of uh, this being nuanced, and I do think that once all the stuff that Lucas clearly doesn't want to deal with goes away, and there's some Hayden is allowed to become a lot more of the behavioral actor, and it's people reacting to strong emotions. The movie picks up in the way that the rest of the prequels don't. But still being said in episode

17:52 one is still my favorite because it's the most cohesive. Mm hmmm. But I think some of the best acting of the prequels is in this one here. Yeah, I think that's true. I think that's true. I think there's a large swath in the back half that really works because again, after the turn, it's just a whole bunch of people reacting to things. Right. Hayden's a good silent actor, I think, because he just has a great face for brooding and scowling. It's great, it's true once again recommending life is a house for everybody. And then the last fifteen minutes of this movie or trash probably I uh yeah, I'm like, really, it's so funny. I'm really burned by this film. You're proud of yourself, You're proud of yourself with that one thank you. That was one hundred percent on purpose, Absolutely on purpose. I think sometimes I'm the funniest on accident.

19:07 I guess like poetry, so that they want, what am I rhyming with? What does that? What is that rhyming with? What? What am I calling back to? Kenny? What? What? What? Am I? My kunking? My bread and Circuses debacle, the Forest, bread and Circuses. I it's funny. I don't like that. It's just not a good film, so sadly, I mean, I it's it was really hilarious.

19:48 Actually, I'm really, I'm actually I'm going to keep asking you. I'm gonna keep I'm gonna keep us on you for a second before I come back to this someone. Oh my god, Kenny, this is the first time, you know, I've talked to about being like I saw a Phantom Menace when I was when I was young. You're only like a year older than me, right, so it's the same same kind of experience, and that meant a lot to me. And it was my first Star Wars experience. And you're talking. I don't know if I've ever actually heard you talk about the Prequels as being something that you truly enjoyed while they were happening as something that you could engage with as like the I get to have my own thing too. I don't know if I guess I am more interested in the aspect because what is so fascinating about exploring the prequels is the prequels are your activation point, oh, for your fandom and Star Wars. But also, yeah, I don't really talk about my Star Wars fandom that much. Maybe I don't ask you enough. That's right, and I think that you should feel bad about it. I should be taking care of you more. I have to say to that, OA, No, I mean, do you you surely you know that Star Wars was the first film that I ever read watched on this planet. I have said that, and so I do know that Star Wars, despite your insistence on the superiority of Star Trek, which is truly how you actually feel, I do know how much Star Wars meant to you. With Star Wars in my child years was way better than Star

21:18 Trek. I was so much more of a Star Wars fan back then. I had the action figures videotapes again growing up, watched the trilogy on SLP vhs. That just played over and over and over again, the original theatrical well not the theatrical versions, because it had a New Hope on it. So I guess the nineteen eighty one version of Star Wars episode or a New Hope. Either way, those three movies were in constant rotation and then especially raised by Star Wars so much. Oh my gosh. Yeah, participating in what ancillary cannon that I could good Shadows of the Empire high I was.

22:02 I was there. I was playing action figures, toy, ships, toys, whatever you've got. And then Episode one it comes out. I freaking remember my mom being like, here it is. He was your first Episode one toy AND's the C three po without any of the coverings. I'm like, this is the greatest thing. I get to participate in this. He's naked. He's naked. Saw Episode one in theater six times. Wow, that's like, man, what are the rings? It was it was important for me. It was important for me to get my numbers up because I wanted to be a real Star Wars fan. I saw that's funny. I saw fellawsh seven times in theaters, and then I saw the other two five unbelievable gosh, those are honking, long, honking movies. I know I was. It was a true obsession, and so I'm like, I say that not to be like, oh my god, I saw this, but no, just genuinely be like, no, I know exactly what you're talking about. As an experience. I'm participating in the marketing of it. I remember before episode two, hopping on the forest dot net and someone, I guess one of the people that ran that website had basically done a pitch perfect synopsis of the movie before the movie came out and pot shopped a whole bunch of frames together, and so basically I sat there and like read the entire movie frame by frame, and whenever I was watching the movie, I specifically

23:37 remember for the first time, I specifically remember whenever they entered the Gnosis arena. I'm like, here comes the arena scene. I've heard, I've read a lot about this. I'm excited to see where it star Wars. Do you remember? Yes? Next question, yep, do you remember? I was going to say the way it felt to be anticipating a film's release, like obviously it happens now, but I feel like the experience is so different now, Like I would be counting down. I would be going on websites. I would be absolutely losing my shit just I couldn't even wait or like being like I have to wait another year or two for this. Oh I'm gonna literally fucking die, like I would track everything. God, what a what a what a time. I remember when I remember when of the episode three trailer dropped just to bring it back on topic. Was I not on topic? No, but like bringing it back to episode three, bringing the circle complete the side, Okay, Kenny, Yeah, I am worried about shape of show, unlike George Lucas. Kenny, Yeah, but I remember loading a freaking double postage stamp sized version of the Star Wars have so retailer and just sitting at my twenty eight eight K modem computer for an hour and like every single time, like just a freaking six frames loaded, being like

25:15 cool six new frames. Oh my god, oh my god. Oh I love that. I love that so much. By the time this film came out, I had lessened and intensity and I think it had actually been supplanted by Lord of the Rings. And Lord of the Rings was like so fierce for me that and it lasted for years like at this point, it was almost like there was not enough space in my heart. So like Star Wars was so dominant, and then Lord of the Rings did come out in two thousand and one, and then it was like two thousand and two, two thousand and three, and then that just lasted me at least four more years.

25:57 And maybe it's touch a fairry potter. So actually, by the time this movie came out, I obviously saw it in theaters, was excited for it, but it wasn't holding that same kind of excitement for me that you were talking about in terms of an experience, in terms of being like, this is the thing that I'm engaging with, and I yeah, I'm engaging with all all the marketing, every single marketing. I'm like, great more, more more frames for the holy text that is Star Wars because I'm yea like such a fervent Star Wars fan at this point, paying attention to so many fan sites. I mean because also with the rise of internet movie journalism so too. Yeah, just paying attention to Star Wars and then I mean the Clone Wars cartoons, paying attention that those the DVD's huge part of that stuff, man, and then paying attention to every single piece coming out about episode three, so amped and I always wanted to go to a midnight show and I'm so glad that my dad chuck me and I saw with your dad.

27:03 Yeah, gosh, that's really nice. Yeah I am. I'm curious about the feelings of like the kinds of positive experiences we have with them initially, Like I obviously like Phantom Menace, not just because it's more cohesive, but because it meant more to me when I saw it at the time, Whereas I'm not super emotionally invested in Revenge of the Seth. There are parts of it, in scenes of it that I find to be so compelling. It's so interesting as discussions, and I'm with you on the actors except for except for Natalie Portman getting to actually do things. It Actually it makes me so mad. And I didn't realize just how mad I was until I was watching it last night and I was just like, I fucking hate this.

27:52 This just goes to the bones of being like Lucas is making this up, yeah, as he went along, and it just freaking throws freaking you know what. And I'm also stop stop straw Man, Internet dummies that are talking about you need someone to plan out all this franchise. The guy that wrote the darn thing was never plans it out. Never plans it out, or he'd have like more meat for pad Me to do. Right. He's also was not the sole creator of any of these things. Fucking shut up, get out of tound. Yeah, I uh, I wonder also to the like a kind of a conoclastic part of me. That's actually the wrong word for this, because it's no you're an iconoclast. I think that's a descriptive for you. But I I don't like that this has a seven point six then I m dB. I don't like that a bunch of rabid fan boys have decided this is a good film. It's purely because the dark aesthetics.

28:52 Yeah, I think it's I think that is that's just fucking boring to me, Like like it feels like a people that saw Joker and were like, Wow, this is our taxi driver. I mean, I need to engage with Joker again at some point, just because it's such a fascinating pop culture object. And I think there's some fabulous analysis and criticism of it. Joker is not a movie that I like, but I'm fascinated by it because so many people were taken with the aesthetics. But at the same time, just because it has this aesthetics doesn't necessarily mean that it's engaging with them in a meaningful way. Yes, aesthetics is not meaning. Luke absolutely is engaging with something that is he's he is, he is for what it's worth, he is, he is. He is finally getting to something, and he still fucks it up a little, like he fouls up the thing that everyone was waiting for, the two things that everyone was waiting for for ever since the prequels were announced as happening back in nineteen ninety four, Like he fouls them up. So Supremelyn, why am I? So? Why am I like grumpy about this? What is going on? Because tell me why I'm feeling this way? Can the movie should be better for someone that has acquired that

30:27 much creative power? Yeah, and the movie is just like that's fine. I yeah, I think that's it, Like I think a lot of it feels. Yeah, it feels it almost feels like this is the culmination of like the wasted potential, Like that's it, and it's the sort of maybe and this is the disappointment of and it's still fun. I like it, Like I'm still like watching it being like, oh happen to great time? Like but yeah, and maybe they're and maybe it is the like the reach toward or at least maybe that the false ignal, like the acknowledgment or the perception by viewers as being like darkness, like it almost like puts me off because I'm like, I think I am, I am very put off by disingenuous things, not necessarily with the text, but with the reaction. You're you're put up by the reaction to the text. And I also think the creation of the thing feels touch a touch disingenuous, and being like we're gonna it almost does feel like they're like, well, this is the serious one.

31:33 And I'm like, you still have like jar jar farting or stepping on someone's toe and being like it's eeny, like he's still like you're you're The tonal inconsistencies are actually pretty weird and jarring. I'm fine with some tonal inconsistencies, but the swings here are truly uh yeah, yeah, it's it's and so maybe it's just something about me like being like or maybe it's something about us having just done Clone Wars, but I'm like writing this high of what how you can have aesthetics while also having meaning and like exploring something and also Clone words were aesthetic exercises. Yes, on purpose, you know what it also might be. I think I am now thinking about the real potential of of the the prequels as being this is now shout out to Jesse or all Jesse Gender on the sixth the sixth hour, the essay that I watched, He's going above and beyond. I want it. It's called the Decaying monometh of Star Wars. It's fucking incredible. I have not even made my way through all of it, but all every single word is so absolutely and it's not just her she made it. She has like a partner on it that she made it with who is also great, and like there's like a whole animated purpose. Editor Aaron Ox. Yes, Aaron Ox, so great,

33:04 so good, incredible work. And what they are talking about throughout it is this, you know, like we're we're we have talked about this. I believe that, you know, it's it's the politics of this as an exploration of this fault of fascism, and so it's this idea of that these this George Lucas was interested in the fact that uh, societies, especially neoliberal societies, much like ours and neoliberal meaning that we are market driven, uh, you know, driven by market forces. We have free market, open and kind of like globalized nature. Though there are other definitions. I think, like when I went to college, I was also thinking of neoliberal in terms of like a an international relations theory. But of course, you know, neoliberalism is what leads us to expand into spaces, you know, and then take will and it leads to things like a lot of our actions, what we've done throughout the world. Yes, what is neoliberalism. It's a great question, and I'm trying to explain it, but I'm going to give you an actual definition. I'm explaining it poorly, I believe, but I'm going to go for this one. I'm gonna go for I'm gonna go for Wikipedia as a political philosophy. So it is what I just so very much wants

34:34 someone to isolate that I'm going to take Wikipedia as a political philosophy. I think just anytime Aspen just responds like advocates for something, just someone do the most bad faith criticism it just posts like that sound bite right there, being like I'm taking Wikipedia as a political philosophy. Listen, I give money to Wikipedia, they asked me, and I give it to them, and that makes you I'm a hero again like cultry, so that they rhyme. So this is what I was saying, but it says it better, which is the late twentieth century political reappearance of nineteenth century ideas associated with free market capitalism.

35:20 There's different definitions. It's often used pejoratively. I would say it is often used pejoratively, especially in terms of the United States and our geopolitical strategies, which is very much about the idea of this free market capitalism of a kind of resource collection and what that means. So if you think about our neoliberal philosophy has driven our conflicts in the Middle East, for instance, and scholarly use, the term is frequently undefined or used to characterize a vast variety of phenomena. It's primarily used to describe the transformation of society due to market based reforms. So, and I believe this is what Jesse talking about. And it would be cool to kind of clarify this too, but specifically with us in the United States, there's it's a rise of conservative right libertarian organizations, political parties, think tanks. It's associated with politics, policies of economic liberalization, with privatization, deregulation, globalization, free trade, austerity, restriction of government spending. Because if you're looking at the idea of it being around free market capitalism, it is the idea. Of course, there's the invisible hand that leads the market that we have. That's grievous as ship. God damn, you mean the the shark? Is that right? Am? I?

36:44 Right? Though? Is it called the invisible hand? In my notes I wrote the sharkfin chode you just look it up. Yeah, he is the neo Liberal party. If that's if that is actually it's name, then that is on purpose. Yeah, oh nice, that's on purpose for sure. So it's not just that we are a republic like the United States is one hund in like the throes of neoliberalism. It's not that we're democracy. It's not that we're a republic. You know, ostensibly we are these things, right, but we're actually plutocracy. We are driven by muddied interests, billionaires, lobbyists. We are exercising a form of you know, free market economy that we are not actually unless it is for less it is for rich people, and then at which point we do have socialism. But for everybody else, of course, it is open economy, open market. With we we have far fewer restrictions on it than say, other like republics and democracies might have. H The effects are damaging and destructive and horrifying. Uh and they and you can actually see where and so part of I think what what she's what she's talking about is this idea of not just a republic and how a democracy could fall to fascism. It's also how and I might be misinterpreting this. This was my biggest takeaway, how a neoliberal society can so easily fall to fascism. And also, and please stop me if I'm taking away

38:16 your point. But the failure of the prequels is that it is not like Lucas intended to from the very beginning. As made sure that I have made my point in the special Additions to bring it home to complete the saga. What he is interested in first with Star Wars is aesthetics m hm, and so all of these things that he is alluding to I want to talk about politics. I want to talk about the falls of fascism or Roman empire, falls of empires, how a good man goes bad, all of those. He's kind of engaging with those things, especially in the prequels, on almost esthetic levels. Yeah, because he's clearly he has a very rowden Berry perspective of like kind of like this white like liberal kind of guy who's interested in the ideas, and he's not not like actually in it, right, Like there's like we know that he's saying, well, if the rebels are vietcong then the empires the United States. He believes that the empire is the United States. We are the baddies. Like he's clearly coming from that perspective, and he's kind of like you can see a sixties seventies like George Lucas being someone who be interested in that and just like all other boomers, kind of falls to the whims of or rather like the appeal of class as driving force,

39:52 as opposed to social justice as driving force. So it's almost like he's still interested in the ideas, this is my interpretation, still interested in the ideas of how fascism can happen. And of course you have ninety nine and then you have Attack of the Clones. It was two thousand, this is now. We're now to two thousand and five. We're in the middle of wars, right, yeah, two forever wars. And we know Anakin literally quote Steorge Bush in this film like, if you're not with me in your again, if you're not with us, then you're against us. You're not with me, then you are against me. And so he clearly has us in mind, and he does have like the idea of like when we get into when we talk about how all the politics of you know, Phantom Menace are boring, it's like, well, that is how it starts. Again, I'm quoting this video directly. That's how it starts. It starts with trade negotiations. It starts like in a banal way or you know where you're just like, oh, it's that kind of shit that then builds up to say, the concentration, the accumulation of power that can be can be then exploited by a populist leader just for shape the show and because you mentioned him, uh huh, gene Ge Rodberry, Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're talking about the fall up or the rise of one empire. Over Revenge of the Sith Right, and here we are with the Roman Empire parallel certain the nineteen sixties, how about that? How about that? Yeah? And with

41:22 a guy who that One of the biggest things I was thinking of with the parallel piece was how interesting that it's it's truly like a Roman Empire society. And five years before this captain and his crew had had to basically figure out how to survive, and he decided to join the Empire. Yeah, for self preservation. And I was like, wow, the real Anakin move and it is a real anti move. And not only that, but there are folks that are pulling the strings with Revenge of the Seth. That's the Emperor and with this episode, it's the pro console. That dude was the best.

42:08 Yeah, Like I fucking hated this dude and it was licious performance. Yes, that dude is like varising it up. We're varrassing. Varius was heat hemming it up that one day. Listen, you never have to watch it. You never have to watch Game of Throats. Oh, I thought that was a Star Wars thing. No, it's Veris from Scave of Throats. Oh. Also, like my Star Wars fandom. After Revenge of the Deeth was just like no thanks. And then whenever the Clone Wars theatrical movie came out, I was like, all right, that's not real Star Wars. Oh yikes, no he yeah, there's the pro Consulate and he is pulling all the strings and this other guy is basically the face of things and letting it also just kind of being complicit and what's happening which this episode?

42:59 I think this episode rips mostly nine of this episode, right, No, I'll dare say like ninety this episode great classic star Trek, and there's five percent that is just classic Roden Berrier being like, what's the quonkiest thing that I can do? What I'm going to pull at you? By the way, at the end of this I think that it's a good episode ruined by two significant things that brings it down so low in my esteem. I can't even handle it. Bread and no bread. No bread. You were watching it with Joel and you're like, there's not a single elephant loaf of brad.

43:39 No brad, no lions or elephants. I was promised two specific things. I don't know even why we're here. What's this statement about the booo o my god. Yeah, no, two specific things sexual assault and clunky, shitty bad history and insertion of a misunderstanding of Christianity. Outstanding, wonderful, literally screamed boo good right yet Yeah no, I mean it's really good. I mean it's it's better. It's actually better, I think than patterns of Force for the most part, despite being so similar in concept lyrics.

44:25 Yeah, I think it's saying more interesting things than patterns of Force is saying. Not that patterns of Force is almost exactly the same story, but this is a far more I can love patterns support, but there's some interesting nuances that are Yes, it's very it's easy to be like Nazis are bad because they fucking are punch them in the face. Obviously enslaving people's are bad. Obviously, like fuck them, punch them in the face. But there was like an interesting well tet tet kind of going on of like, well, you are from a world in a society that has been in constant war and has killed millions of people for thousands and thousands of years, and obviously both of these systems are not the answer, and either of them are right.

45:17 But it did kind of have me. It did hit me in then one of those moments where I then had my little cycle of depression where I was just like, of course, we're always at war because that's one of the ways that you secure power. Anyway, I'm fine, and that's the way. But that's the thing. It's like, what are we so different then from that? Like we secure power in different types of ways by keeping fear afloat and yeah we have we have forever wars and that's how power is concentrated for us. And is it really so different in the circumstance? But now I know all about how the Roman Empire worked and about the beginning of Christianity because Joel told me, yeah, so what do he tell you? Good lord, you did a lot of research for this that well, it was he just talked to me for thirty minutes. I feel like I should call him back in here, but he might talk for another thirty minutes. I'm gonna mischaracterize when he said, well, because okay, the Roman Empire.

46:24 One of the things he mentioned was the reason the Roman Empire could be so okay, Oh, first, can I just yell about something? Yeah? Sorry, Before we even get started, they fucking worshiped the Sun in ancient Rome literally soul and then soul invictus, like they worshiped the sun. Did not know that because and then so does so much engage in Uh, what do you remember about the Roman Empire? There's columns, there's some chains. Oh, I guess they have their gods. We give or take that one. And that's pretty much what this episode is interested in regards to actually engaging with the Roman Empire. It's very much just like not engaging in it with any nuance instead very much just being like, let's let's golant the Roman Empire onto our system of right. Yeah. In this episode, from what I can tell, seems to really be more of a commentary on the ways that we like sensationalize violence and like the power. Yeah, it's it's commenting on how the US is pacifying it's public using right. It's it's wildneteen in a TV show at nineteen eighty six, which is just like, ah, yes, utilizing such things as oh my goodness, retirement funds and pensions and social

47:55 security payments as a means of pacifications, so book will be comfortable enough to allow evil to happen, right, which is that is a fucking great way, that's exactly radical for nineteen sixty eight NBC. It is, it is, and it is. It's like well, and there's sure, okay, I'm going to one hundred percent characterized this good part of this Roman uh Roman Empire Birth of Christianity. Conversation also pulled into a bit of like morality and Nietzsche's definitions of rality because it gets I know, and this actually reminded me of something he said to me over here, being like well, Mark Cushman said in his book with the Voyage, just like I how to give proper context, I had to read the tones of Nietzsche and I didn't child did not me. He just told me and like right before yeah, yeah, but the idea of like you can like create systems more and if you are an enslaved person, your system of morality is going to be. If you're a person who's persecuted, it is shaped by well, like good and evil, as opposed to say maybe something like I look at like if I'm not a persecuted person, I look at this and I'm like, this is good.

49:13 I like this thing. This is bad. I don't like this thing. This is lesser than the thing I like, but if you're in a system in which you are surviving and everything is desperate and you are like you are literally hurt every single day, what good is for you is something that is like relief or support or mercy. That is what now becomes a good and the other things are evils because it is the system, it is the empire, it is the it is the Roman Empire, it is the people who are hurting me. So you have a very stark sense of what a different type of morality looks like. And so if you have a system that is painted in this episode of like that, that is what goodness is for these people who are enslaved. And so if they were given any type of service of any kind, that is now a mercy and that is a good right. And so it can pacify to some extent while there still is an evil that exists. And I'm like kind of butchering this a little bit.

50:19 I don't think it's quite pulling, but it was something that I just it Actually that's what feeds into the idea of the beginnings of Christianity. But that's why we were talking about it. But in terms of like the ideas that the pacification of people. Like the idea of of televising this having people fight is the literal bread and circuses. You're numbing people to a thing while also keeping them satisfied. I do think that this concept is truly does get its best characterization ultimately in The Hunger Games. I love The Hunger Games, and I was like to see Thank Collins watch this episode. I mean, she probably just knows about Roman Roman Empire and Roman history. But the idea, the idea that it's you know that it's it's televised, is huge. Well, you're tapping into the other thing that has so much juice and I cannot this show getting very self aware. Oh yeah, it's just like they're like, it's probably like a commentary on the studio itself. It's right, it's Gene cod and Gene Roddenberry being like, all right, let's come together here and let's grind some axes. Because they're probably I'm assuming Rodenberry more so, but that's a complete assumption because coun and Roddenberry, at least from what I can remember, you're sharing a co writing credit for this one that popped up.

51:52 I yelled, I actually got confused, and genuinely and That's why I looked up to see if this was an earlier episode that was just LA and I was right, look how much or more? Yeah, because the faults at NBC were like, I assume we're in charge of scheduling and they put this second to last in the season. Anyways, very clearly it feels like, if not Roddenberry or Kun, at least a creative team philosophically struggling with what their value is at this time. Yeah, in great American strife, and they recognize what are we We are serving as a distraction, we are culpable in this injustice. But at the same time, there's still I mean, it's certainly I think the satire of the TV stuff is certainly not as pointed as I am making it out to be. But a the same time, it's still within These are the Voyages season two. They're talking about how in the original book they're talking about giving you the Gladiator James live and in color, and in the original version it was in living color, and NBC was like, nahuh no, no, you cannot do that because NBC's whole thing was this telecast brought to you in living color on NBC. Right,

53:30 you feel like, I'm meta narrative. It's spice. It's spice. It is spicy too bad, It's like weirdly ruined too bad. As always, it gets muddied and weird, like because it's saying something so interesting and actually is having some of the best, the best emotional moments I've seen in a while. It had DC Fontana levels of Spock characterization and growth not growth but like commentary on and connection with McCoy. That was fucking beautiful. But it also had Kirk presumably sleeping with an enslaved woman. Yeah, which is which? Drift? Which is which is sexual assault? Don't even fuck with me on it, you know what I mean? Absolutely, you're not they are.

54:17 Fuck them for that. I'm like, I'm raged. I'm enraged that, like, you could be saying interesting things and then you still throw the most bullshit kind of moment in there for what like and it's almost like them fulfilling their own prophecy. They're like, well, we might be being thoughtful about ourselves, but look, we're still going to We're still going to use marginalized people. Not that white women are more marginalized than like others, but like we're gonna use like people that we marginalize as like fodder for you still as viewers, like we're still doing the thing, so don't think that we're actually learning. We're not the baddies. The studios are the baddies. And then the end with that absolute bullshit about how about how these this group of uh people who had been enslaved and had gotten away follow soul, which the Romans did have soul, it's not out of But then and it was like the sun and then Ahura is like, don't you know it's the son of God. I'm like, it's fucking not. What are you talking about?

55:19 Sorry? I was just like, well, you know, you know that roden Berry so proud of that? What is he proud of? What do you think? What was he What was he going for? Kenny? Was he trying to go for historical accuracy because he's not? Because he was like, that's pretty cute, that's pretty pretty cute. Yeah, we just saw this with the Omega Glory. Dude, No, you know that Geene Roddenberry was so proud of that. I'm bewildered by a man who I mean, this is not the perspective I'm necessarily coming from, but thinking from a Roddenberry perspective of like, is that dude like a religion released anti yati or a what's it? What's the deal? He's just yeah, he's just trying to be cute. He's atheist. He's all it is is just being cute and cute. Fuck that. Yeah, absolute nightmare. Shit. It's stupid.

56:10 It is and it's distracting, Like it actually distracts fully from the thing, because now that I now know the origins of christian Yeah, there's enough, there's enough juwice here, and then it's so clunky as hell. Yeah, it's just I don't I don't like I can excuse some things where it's like we had a serious ass episode and then we made a joke at the end. I'm like that's fine, But this kind of shit, I'm just like it feels feels insulting to everyone. And yeah, so I'm with you that. I'm like like on other episodes where you're like, wow, we could have like it's great, I'm gonna spite rank it, rate it for sure, like something about it. Am I just in a bad mood. Now I'm not in got mood. Well, I think it's the same thing.

56:58 Objective I think same thing as Revenge of the Set. That's like, I don't I truly hate when I'm watching something with a lot of potential that tanks it so badly. You know, that's saying something interesting, and then the creators are still up their own what They're just like, look at me, I'm just that funny little man, just a little buddy doing a little dan and I'm just like you. You could just go fuck yourself, go make your own little bucking movie somewhere else. Don't let me down anyway. How are you? Are you Okay, I'm good. Let's go into the deep type. Uh. So Breton Circus is what's interesting, not necessarily relevant, but I think this is fascinating context. Uh. This was an assignment from Gen Rodenberger and Gene Kuhn to a brand new writer, writer John Newbill who's forty seven. New who's a new and his name is new Bill. Uh forty And according to Dorothy Fontana Aspen, I want you to grab onto something.

58:05 This is going to be rad fuck fuck fuck. You can just keep holding out to your water bottle, okay, and you can do a spit take if you want. Oh exciting the writer the original writer of this script was an actual Samoan prince. I try not to actually spit on my microph. He was an Olympic swimmer twenty years before he was a Samoan prince. And then he just kind of changed careers, uh, and became a writer, a successful TV writer, and invented the character of doctor Lovelass for The Wild Wild West, one of Star Trek also compatriots on TV at this time, rather a successful show from what I understand, The Wow Wow West.

58:50 When you bounce into the Wow Wow West, when you stroll into the Wowow West, when I roll into the Wow Wow West, We're going the next piece of contact. So he wrote on this for a sizeable amount and then, at least according to the book, citing personal health problems as the reason, he declined to do further revisions and then abandoned this script. From there, Gene con and Jean rotten Berry did the rewrites on this, and then at some point, you know, I mean, you're probably wondering why doesn't he have a credit, And that's because he did not. He specifically asked for no credit on this. Oh so it's not like when George lucas Or did the special edition so that he could fuck over the people that won an oscar for editing for a new Hope. I don't like that. I surely know about the nuances of that. I'm sure that it's a lot more complicated than internet books. That's not why he did it, but it did change everybody's sure I see, yeah, isn't it. I'm just I'm just taken facts. I'm just taking information from a six hour video that is correct.

1:00:05 Yes, m that's a fuck it over, but it did, in fact do a disservice greatly to all the people who did work on the effects of the original films. Anyway, what's up? You're so right? Well, I'm not the one who said it, but I'm saying it now for you to hear and for everyone to hear. And then I'm a grumpy baby. Also, yes, this episode was forty third filmed of all of Star Trek and push Back to being the fifty fourth aired episode, and was not given a repeat broadcast. Then, also, let me read this. Wait what this week? Do you mean it was filmed? Quote? What did you mean it didn't get a repeat broadcast? It? You know reruns? Yeah, first first reruns whenever it was just an NBC show like summer reruns, right, it didn't get a rerun, uh, not for at least whenever it was on NBC in syndication. In syndication, of course it did milked it for all it's worth. But while it was on NBC, Matt Okay got it, got it, and then uh, to give you the range inducing things. Bring it back to our discussions of neoliberalism and the decline of vampires. Mm hmm. Two things. One, rodden Berry was rewriting this script, daring shooting heavily, which was not uncommon, but oh yeah, gen Kuhn, and that was their relationship. Gene Kuhn was not exactly reluctant.

1:01:34 Gen Kuhn gladly shared credit, but roden Berry was like a lot of the stuff that was being shot on the day was roden Berry had his little fingies all over it. And that's probably why the end of the episode gets so darn cute, because the boss upstairs was doing these things. And it was also before Rodenberry I think went had he come back from writing his little Robin Hood pilot by then? Maybe maybe not. Either way, there was consternation because rodden Berry went away for a while, so working on other projects. Gene Kuhn was like, I'm the supervising producer over here. We're gonna write these episodes. And there are a whole bunch of episodes that you and me are like, is it a great episodes? It's classic Star Trek.

1:02:15 Then when Rod came back, when Geen Roddenberry came back, he was like, this is not the way that Star Trek was supposed to be. And so roden Berry, even on this episode, was trying to strip out as much humor as he could because he did not think that Star Trek should be humorous. And I think that it has to strike a specific balance. It can't be too funny all the time, because not every episode should be like a hairy mud hijinks episode. I think if gene Kuhn was just left to run rampant, maybe it would have just been pure comedy. Who knows. But it also can't be like super duper dry like Geen Roddenberry wants it. Anyways. Huh, here's the thing that would be really frustrating. I'm so excited and giving notes about this script to to John Newbill talking about Roddenberry, and I'm reading this again from these of the Voyage of Season two, Please go buy the buck. It's right. Rotten Berry was intrigued by the concept of a modern day society circa Earth nineteen sixty seven, which participated in slave trading. Of this, he said, and I'm going into the rage inducing part parenthetical incidentally, that being slaves not a bad idea. I could use a couple of slaves myself, or on second thought, considering what we pay for our housekeeper, maybe you've got one. What a terrible thought, I eat that I have a slave and instead of feeding her and give her money to go out and feed herself, and probably not as well as I'd feed and clothe her if she lived more closely with the pan Yes, a terrible

1:03:45 thought. I really feel guilty. So this makes a lot of sense, that this absolute nightmare of a human being who's saying is intrusive thoughts out loud, and I was thinking that, but are gonna be like, oh so funny. She of course would write a muddied story that is like, I mean, really, is slavery really that bad? Because that whole conversation obviously like that kind of you know, is our society really that worse? Than yours, didn't. I My takeaway from that was, no, these are both really fucking bad things. Like but I'm like, oh no, were you like actually inviting that as a real thought? Cool? And also to just bring it more into perspective. This is radical for the time. But you know, could do better, could be better? Yeah? And I yeah, I interesting, shit, don't like that. Speaking of trivia that you can get about these things. I did read some trivia that apparently someone who had come on the set, like Jean Rod and Mary was walking or is one of the genes. I think it was Rod and Mary was walking and then Shatner saw him and then just promptly turned around and went the other way, and they were like someone was like mentioning all the tension on the

1:05:16 set and like everybody hated each other, and they just complain about each other to this person, which is wild because the darn thing it's still going all these years later. I mean, you know, toxic workplaces, I guess. Speaking of trivia, though, you said to me that there's some trivia in IMDb on Revenge of This seth that I'm gonna love. Do you know which piece of trivia it is? We see let me scroll. Hold on a second if I could, just because there's quite a bit of trivia. Of course, let me scroll. Here we go. I got pulled up and clicked trivia tap go and scrolling down. Submitted by user Rick Olier.

1:06:02 The whole planet is one big city. Okay, are you serious? Did you know? Kenny? Wait? No? No, no? Because I then texted you back, is it that? Isn't it that I said? Isn't it? The planet is what makes the whole planet? Wait? I guessed I thought you're being serious? Yeah, because I was like, oh no, in this like fight over Coruscant, those ships are creaming to award the planet. They're going to like wipe out millions of people. Did you know that episode three was rich? I mean was going to start differently, No big surprise, cool. I mean I'm sure many things would have been different. What is so fascinating reading Secret History of Star Wars? And then also because it seems like the writer Mychael Kiminski. I think that's what its name is. Yes, Michael Kaminski is pulling quite liberally from gw Wrinsler is the making of Revenge of the Sith. But it's it's fun to watch Rick McCallan be like, George, you're still not done with the script? Yeah, the dude on the dude and all the marketing is just being like, wow, it was always like the original. It was always meant to be Sick Hearts, which is not true. You can read Secret History of Star

1:07:34 Wars and I'm sure pull up a whole bunch of different other interviews whereas answer changes from nine to twelve to six to three to six. Nothing's ever planned out, it's none of it. None of it is played now and then like still still here. Lucas is like creating things based off of art department stuff. Case in point, it is hypothesized that the Grievous wasn't going to exist and instead DUCA was gonna last until two thirds and then that's like Anakin kills Duke and that's how he turns mm hmm. But then obviously that did happen and instead George walks in one one day. It's just like, can you can you draw like a robot general? You think that's gonna be probably a character? God damn, because he's like episode two and I mean also kind of like the original Star Wars. Uh. The the art department is feeding the script development, script development beating the art department because aesthetics, Yeah, like aesthetics and that you know, it can be okay, but the the narrative around it is insulting and it's and it's infantalizing for all of us.

1:08:48 Okay, it's not It's not bad to have the art department kind of dictate script development. Case in point, that Max Fierry Road, a film which allegedly does not have a screenplay, exists solely in storyboards. That's an art department movie baby, and an editing murmer. Yeah, dude, I was saying about that where we talk about it. That's fine. What what does become a problem is just shoddy filmmaking and right, someone who is not entirely sure what the specifics are to say. Case in point, the narrative about Anakin turning because he's trying to say a pat right, it's it's messy as fuck. And also asmen, that's the clean version. Oh Christ, Jesus H. Christ, the Son of god Son in reading Secret History of Star Wars, which I'm sure you can read about in JW. Wrinslaer's The Making of Revenge of the Set they're talking about a lot. Uh, Anakin's turn was a little bit more. It wasn't working in an earlier cut, and so George just pulled out as much material as he could that wasn't Anakin focused right, And then at some point they just said, I want you

1:10:21 to book mark the rebellion thing. We'll come back to that. We'll come back to that at least one, Kenny, at least one or just some com Okay, but that makes them like token scenes where you're just having scenes where you're just like, the girl needs something to do, just like it's Commander Riker at the bottom of The Enterprise and Star Trek Nemesis where he goes to fight the Vice really and I watched that being like, but like, this doesn't need Kenny here. I have no idea what you're talking about. Good Kenny. I'm not even like, no, it's not it's exactly perfectly what are you doing exactly like Commander Riker and the Vice roy fight and Star Tech Nemesis? Is that a movie? Listen, there's a scene where pad Bey's like, do you think maybe we're on the wrong side? And if I just had a little bit of a scene where I saw her doing her fucking job. Where people were like, here's a concept. I would have been like, oh, there's a little more off to this, and that's all I needed, Kenny, Sorry, So they took out everything I didn't have to do with his own stupid little journey go on the most critical journey that he needed to land in all of these freek walls in terms of audience expectation, and he shirt certainly didn't land it because the turner is conky heck.

1:11:45 But also it was, at least according to reading the Secret History of Star Wars, it was just a lot more muddied. It was a combination of a whole bunch of different factors, whether it's just like protecting Palpatine and pride and power were all these things and instead and dispersion just stripped out. And the turn is clear, which is he wants to say pat sure, even though whenever the turn happens, you're like, huh, what that seems? What sudden? Kenny? Yeah, I have a question for you. Yeah, do you remember a few episodes ago you were like, who do you think George sees himself as? Yes, who did you say, I say Vader or not Vader? A little boy Anakin starting out and then you think getting co opted by a system. Yes, yes, exactly, and that's exactly so he has now been so and like that is the issue.

1:12:51 So going back to the idea that he could be coming in with very good ideas that are actually interesting more than aesthetics, I am, I am interested. Now all he's got things to say. He does not agree with our engagements. In two thousand and five he puts the words, if you're not with me, then you're my enemy in an environment where I don't know whenever the Dixie Chicks got canceled quote unquote, no they did, they got they got they got black for being like the Iraq War is bad. Yep. And here's a piece of popular entertainment that is dare making the now direct parallel yep, yep, as opposed to direct in in the past, where you're just like the e Woks are kind of the viet Cong in the Imperials are kind of America, even though they're all talking British. It's your your aesthetics, aesthetics, esthetics. But now, yeah, he is just like here right here, here, here is the text. So although he's not as opposed to like how Rodden Berryer would do it. He would be like, uh, imperial and America, I hate it. Oh, don't act.

1:14:19 And again that's the son of God own so much Star Trek. He owns so much Star Trek. I so his you think, you think someone making such a clear statement of look what our policies will get us. It will get us to this kind of neoliberal bent of the way that these kinds of globalization, but also not just globalization, the way that we can invade into all these other spaces to take resources and we don't care about actual life because it's only about market and moneyed interests. Look at where it takes. So he has this clear perspective and yet does not follow through. So if you're not with me, you're against me, just becomes another aesthetic choice. It becomes we come out yeah, And it's such a disappointment. And so he ultimately right, He is the one ultimately co opted by the system, which you know comes up later in the ways that he like engages with it.

1:15:19 But even in this film, it's just which maybe it's it's the only I feel like I might be one of the only readings of this film unless you're like taking it in contact with the rest of the Clone Wars apparently, but like, if you're just viewing the prequels as a creative statement from an a tour, the only way that this whole thing might work is engaging with it through the lens of George Lucas and a tour theory of being like, what is this dude trying to say? Yeah, which means that the only narrative juice that these prequels have that is remotely interesting, like actually, in truth, stay it's having the metatextual narrative who George Lucas is, what he means to the environment, and then coming in of being like is anakin the George Lucas cerk And then you could be able to be like, then here's a POV that is interesting and possibly kind of clee. And that's disappointing to me because if it were actually for this story's sake, as opposed to this like extra textual autruur theory, then and I'm not a filmmaker, I'm not even a writer. I'm not an art department worker. But if you were, if you actually have a clarity of an emotional arc, it shouldn't be that hard to figure out how someone would fall to empire, to fascism. It's

1:16:51 also, i mean, the biggest both of us agree, and we've already stated on this episode Episode one best of the prequels. That doesn't make it a good movie, but it's the best because it is of itself. Yes, the problem is that these movies suffer from prequel itis. Yeah, he had not only that, it's prequels to what can arguably called the most important films in modern cinema history. Sure, so there is a built in end point, and Lucas did not give himself the runway to explore these things because he was not He'll say it first, he's not a great writer, but he's got to do it, probably because he has control issues and because none of his friends were like, I don't want to write a Star Wars because I know it's going to be involved. It's it's your thing, we know, right. There's another piece from this Jesse Eeral Jesse Gender video about about the hero's journey and of course like there's something to Star Wars kind of becoming this sort of like picture of the hero's journey. Yes, and Joseph Campbell being a real bucking piece of shit idiot who yeah, who like a person

1:18:24 who said, okay, look, here are all the stories that we have. But then Cherry picked his stories and totally ignored other different stories from different countries or different cultures and decided on what it was going to look like and also decided that it had to be male centric and it was just bullshit all around. And I think the fundamental thing about and what you're saying, the fundamental thing about a hero's journey is it has to kind of loop back around, like that is the journey itself, and we kind of come back and with these different stories, we've come back again to a status quo and a real story, a true story, a bit of me that's around, Like what does it look like to engage with Like structural change might actually like you know, obviously you're different, the world might be different, but we're still status quo, right because I see your face, I would be actually thinking about Campbell and at least the way that I understand mono myth, which is I think radically mischaracterized by the general populace, which is to say that it's not It becomes a story prescription by cynical Hollywood who is just like formula cool, monetize and as opposed to how Campbell, which I'm not certainly not an endorsement of Campbell, but he's that he's functioning from the lens of a story anthropologist and being like, what are the commonalities with which again he was cherry picked, certainly, but he's not even saying it has to be prescriptive.

1:19:55 It's just like, here're the commonality is that I see, this is the Yeah, this is what is common to stories, and this is and and but I think and so, yeah, let's take the value out of it. This is just what was common to a lot of stories. And it's like Star Wars is a really good example of what we might call Star Wars is a really good example. He actively talks about how it is, which is so fascinating because Lucas Star Wars would nearly be as successful from a story perspective if Lucas had not walked backwards into the Jesser Campbell monomyth in his search for a story to demonstrate his aesthetics, and Joseph Campbell wouldn't have nearly gotten the boost if uh, Star Wars has not become part of kind of the extra marketing tool. Well, in order for Star Wars to exist effectively, there always has to be a conflict. So you cannot when sorry, give me one second, someone just knock. No, Okay, that's sorry, that's weird, Like you cannot like ultimately actually disassemble the system because the system has to be there for the conflict to persist in this way, I mean the neoliberal forces that are talking exactly, that's exactly the market, Like the

1:21:30 market takes there must be more Star Wars. Therefore a new conflict must be That's the meta narrative, like, that's the piece to it is just like by nature of the nature of Star Wars, like it has to continue to go. It cannot. It cannot actually achieve what a real story of Star Wars like something which would be we've actually achieved justice, which is actually broken. Last Jedi, it's so great because it's the one that makes that subtext into text and being like, isn't it weird that all these or worth keep happening. That's the first one to be like what why why? Sorry? Joel came back in. He did knock? I thought I heard a knock. He's here, what's he here to say? Is he here to yell at me? What's he gonna say? Okay, why the fuck are they speaking basic? He's gone. I can't answer that question. It's gone.

1:22:28 I can't answer that question. That's an asking question. I'm pretty sure it has to do with like what racial superiority perceived racial superiority? Right, Yeah, I just got an answer. Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, that's yeah, probably that that's a really good question. Actually, that was a good callback. What are we getting at? What are we talking about? What's happening right now? Well we are? I think, oh, you know what I was going to do. This goes back to I mean, a fundamental structural conceit that Georgie Porgy brings to the table that he is.

1:23:14 As we've said, he's wanting to demonstrate aesthetics. He's always in search of a story, and want better way to demonstrate aesthetics than by taking from what you've done previously. Againess like poetry, so if they rhyme and so suddenly in search of in search of aesthetics, because I believe he backed into something meaningful. The circle theory, all of this has happened before, all of this will happen again, and so they are just participating in loops. Textually. George here I think is not competent. Well, some of it's intentional, some of it's unintentional, repeating certain bits. He knows that repeating certain bits. He wants it to be like poetry. It's sort of so so that they rhyme. A lot of it comes out clonking and kind of pandering.

1:24:01 Some of it does become meaningful, but it doesn't actually become textual until Last Jedi, and instead it's just kind of subtext. I'm not sure if there's a meaning to that, and I except to be like the Last Jedi is a great ending point for the Skywalker socca. Yeah, I'm so glad they stopped it there and to bring it back to Star Trek to Bread and Circuses. Oh yeah, I love Star Trek. You kidding me? Gires, Bred and Circuses? Did you right? That's your did love that car? It's that same I do think that same metatextual, that kind of meta narrative of what is the demand of the studio, Like what is the demand of you know, we are making that episode is making a comment on the idea of like Soma for the masses kind of thing of you know, I'm being giving them. This is televised it for your entertainment. You are given these things to forget that you are enslaved. That is the commentary on it while still existing within a system in which that is. That is the case, and you said it yourself like they're aware of it, but they're still not quite hitting it as hard as they could because they can't. Like they can do a lot, but it still can't. This is how fast they're able to make that commentary. They're able to make that satire on a network, which is being like we should say they can't. We should be fucking stupid. They're stupid. Yeah, that's also fair. They also can't because

1:25:33 Jean Rod Mary could go book himself. Just to be very clear, they can't for many reasons. Yeah, it means Star Trek exists best in the future whatever. It's taken out of his hands, which is kind of sad. You still like me e him and I yel love you kidding okay, and we love you audience. Thank you so much for listening with you. No, I've got so much to sire. Goddamn god, damn the fuck.

1:26:14 Yeah, So do you remember in the bread and circuses when he sleeps with an enslaved lament. Honestly, I was just like, hmm, that's pretty dicey. Uh. I appreciate you being like, no, dude, that's sexual assault. Thanks, thanks, thanks, appreciate You're welcome. Sorry, sorry that my white dude in this was just being like difficult misogyny. Anyways, it is a pretty just your regular type of which is fine because it's you know, what we do. I am used to it because I live in a much like the Joker would say, live in a society.

1:26:59 Yeah we do. Anyways. Episode three was first supposed to start off with a montage on seven battles on seven New Planets. M hmm, what else? Padme was not supposed to die with because of a broken heart, but instead possibly either having made it escaped to Aldron or with UH on an operating table because you know UH and it can crush her windpipe. Why why couldn't they just have her have just die because he killed her? Like I could tell. I could tell that George was like, I need her to die here because I need it to be a visual parallel of him turning into Darth Vader while she dies, Like I get it. They're both on fucking like tables and shit like I can see it, and she's all in white and he's all in black. Blah blah blah. I see what you're doing, George. Why not just have her die because he crushed her wind pipe?

1:27:56 Are you sure that you're the Star Wars contention of this podcast. I like a lot of shit. I don't can you tell I don't like either of these, But last week I liked him boat so much. I think there's a lot of stuff to talk about in regards because they are at least swinging wildly in terms of trying to say something, and I as opposed to like something that I feel is devoid of attempting to really say something like The Force Awakens. Oh, I'm now way anti Force Awakens. I remember sitting in that theater in twenty fifteen and being like that movie was a stinker. I loved it the first time I saw I saw with Heidi, first time I ever saw it with Heidi? Who is who is? Who is? Who is Heidi? Why don't you tell us who Heidi is? She? My girl? Yeah, she's so. I saw Force Awakened with and I was thrilled and very excited to watch that movie, and I think it's what Heidi made Heidi want to watch movies with me, because I think I did spend the whole time going bah and making a lot of noises and moving my body a lot. Yeah, uh yeah, And that movie set the palette for what we thought we wanted from Star Wars. And now everyone hates the sequel trilogy and is now like the prequel prequel is actually rual, so we don't deserve it. Yeah, that's right, or maybe we do. It's not

1:29:29 the Internet we need to see Internet we deserve. Hey, that's actually what it is. Let's see previous was a creation. Uh that being said, broken clock is correct twice, and I will say, yeah, I am genuinely shocked. It seems that the Tragedy of dark Plagus the Wise was written by George Yeah. I find that extremely hard to believe, because it's really good and it is extremely well acted. Everyone nails it. The mi'son sane of setting it out the opera, like everything about that scene just oh that's great. A beautiful, wild opera with like the flying steaks and the brood the whole time, and it's Jan mcdermidd being an incredible actor. It's so good, it's mass it's so good. It's so good. That's a great it's a great scene. It's beautiful, and you can tell like Christian Hayden Christiansen, Christian Haydensen, Hayden Christiansen is like having a real emotional time.

1:30:36 No, you're right. He's a good eye actor, is a good face actor. He presents sadness whenever very easily. Uh, because it's hard to deliver this dialogue. Even back in nineteen seventy seven. Uh, the actor was being like, uh, you can write this stuff, George, but you can't say it. And you see the prequels kind of prove that because he forgets to give them the direction of faster and more intense. But as I told you in texts and I'll say it again, whenever this movie strips the dialogue out, I think Revenge of the Sith becomes a successful thing. The Darth Plaga scene is great. And then the other fabulous scene that I absolutely love is whenever Anakin and Padme are looking across the city at each other, just kind of reaching out to the forest. They're doing sad looks and I'm just like this is unusually patient, and this is just tone, this is just mood. And if the prequels were filled with more of these kinds of scenes, perhaps that we as an audience would find a lot more meaning.

1:31:45 Yeah, it's like the music is doing the thinking and they're just looking at each other. And then Hayden Christensen's performance like radically improves whenever you strip the dialogue away and he's just he's just brooding, right, I mean, which if he maybe had had good dialogue, you can deliver a better direction at all. Yeah, I mean same for poor Natalie Portman. I think a good actor having to be like having to be like what He's like, You're so beautiful and she's like, I'm only so beautiful? What is she? Which was cere at least according Secret History of Star Wars. That's a rewrite so they can place more importance on the relationship from the beginning, not a sun that was in the original cut. Love this blinded Me? Well, here's what you do. If you want to make your romance actually be a true motivational factor, make it. Make it good, make it good.

1:32:45 If you want your romance to be good, you make it. When Harry mets out yeah, you make them be like Wow, turns out men and women can never be friends ever. Man. Yeah, I it's for some reason, because I know believe me. I remember that. I was like, I think I'm like into this an attack of the clones. Maybe if they put more of the love theme in this, I would have felt it more. But like or given her more like I do think stripping her of so much agency in character nothing to do like, because the thing is that if you have two people in love, and you have someone who's driven by relationship and by love, that other person has to be a real fucking person. Like It's not like he cannot exist in a vacuum. It's just insulting. It's so insulting, and instead, like her function is just to be like can't I can't Skywalker and Leah Leah. You know, yeah, she's just a baby holder. I'm fine. Did you read I'm okay the baby holder. I really love that you wanted to cast Jason's state thum met role reckon that needs you know, I'm the one to do. I like your stateum a lot more than mine. It sounds better when I were trying relar. I'm excited to see your Halloween costume as Jason stathum. Oh,

1:34:16 I would love it to be Oh my god, there's this bit, there's this, there's this, there's this how did this get made? The best podcast ever? Bit where it's except for our bigra you sorry, which is the best of God, what movie is it? It's like, oh, it's cellular. And there's just this bit throughout the whole thing where Jason Statham is supposed to be like a like a like a los Angelina, like he's truly from Los Angeles, but he like kind of can't shake his English accent. And so there's just this whole bit was just like Jason's stateum Los Angeleino.

1:34:58 Just like naming all these Los Angeles states is just like I gotta get a drink, gotta go to Brifith box to take your walk. You know, it's just been all with like a British It's such a good bit. Anyway, Anyway, do you want to play a game? I feel like I could be talking about both of these things for another hour because these are such I like Brendon Sarcus is a lot more than you do. That's fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, but it's just wait What the heck am I doing? You were the one that asked me to play the theme song?

1:35:38 Why am I missing out on this opportunity a long time ago? Start dating this week? I quoted a boat, I dated a game, but none of them could work mine. Drive into highbers space. The best of both worlds can be in the second place, Captain slog on a holla kron, I wanted a snog. I pend a song. Seventeen more minutes advise in super high dev aboard the USS Enterprise DT. Don't you take my walk lighter and clip it? Don't you take my wretchird buddy and nip it?

1:36:32 If you spill the tea, I'm gonna snip it. My starship it. M h long time ask what are we doing here? Oh? The best, the best, best, best, best game and the world I starship it. Let's name our favorite starships and our favorite romantic ships. Boy, oh boy, do we have so many, so many delicious starships and relationships to choose? Rotten Oh yes, indeed. In fact, now that you've given me the name of Grieve as his ship, I'm like, oh no, but I there is a I've got so many things I could choose I could choose horse lizard as a vehicle would love her so much. Choose grievous is weird spinny wheel thing with legs. I could choose a sharktrode shuttle.

1:37:28 That's what it looks like. Oh that's not called the invisible hand. The invisible hand is is his ship, and then that's a shuttle that comes from it. I know the shuttle is like squat and has a little fin. I love it, but so a bit ago. I incorrectly named a ship, and I accidently confused it for this ship. And now I finally get the opportunity if I may go first, Yes, which is bail Orghana ship, the tantep three, the tanti not the my dear, this hand, the Tanti three, not to be famously confused with the Tante four, which is no, that was not your choice. Yep, this is this is the same. This is the Shame ship, because well, I mean this is bail organa specific ship there is like uh, and I believe this is still his. It's a c R. Seventy court vet is what it's called, and it is the one from I believe a New Hope right because it's Bail's like that's the that's the ship that Leah is on, and you see it here of course at the end of Revenge of the Sith, because bail Organa is doing uh, the lord's work of rescuing. Uh, he's rescuing, He's rescuing the narrative. So make sure that anyone is watching this thing could be like, oh, right, Star Wars episode three. Good it ends up in the exact same place at the beginning of the first one.

1:38:57 So there's no I'm not worried, right right, It's we always have to, Yeah, we come back to what we are used to. It's it's because, of course, the style of it is, you know, it's the kind of shouldn't talk about this, but I think we've talked about this basically, right, which is the idea of like the streamlined look of the ships, you know, becoming of course more uh square, but and kind of getting more into the original style of what you see in the original trilogy, which you you know, I think we can because we just understand this to be like, oh, this is because of like art production aesthetics.

1:39:39 But I think if we were to like let's say, just like stay in text and like make up a narrative about it. I don't hate the idea of it going from a style towards something that's a lot more specifically brutalism. Effectively, it's also intentional. I mean the art department it is okay, good, perfect, it's it's a combination of both them. I mean, recognizing that they need to try it out more of the all familiar, but at the same time the art department is just like, we're starting off sleek now, and then as things get worse, it gets a lot blockier, right, And yeah, and there is there are actual historical inspirations for that, and here I can show that. So his his ship, of course, is blockier, but it's so beautiful. It's bright white inside. Of course, as we know, still it might be very like square in shape on the inside with everything, but it's it's very beautiful, and it's the shape of it's really super interesting. And I'm just I've always loved that ship.

1:40:43 Yeap, so uh, I'm going to go to the map for General Grievous's shuttle, the soulless one, the shark Trode. Uh yet yes that's not the one at the beginning, but like the one after. I've even talked about General Grievs in this movie, and the fact that he gets his heart, so his heart gets shot, it explodes, his eyes catch fire. This is a kid's movie. His heart. You see his heart pump OPI wan shoots his heart, his eyes exploding fire. It's fucking horrified, especially given the fact that now we know that like he was purposely blowed up so that they could turn him into that cyborg creature, and then these parts of him that remained organic or his heart and as lungs presumably, I guess.

1:41:45 Oh, but I told you about this. I told you all about this, don't you remember. Well, yeah, but like I didn't know this when I was watching it, because this is General Grievous watching this in two thousand and five. Well, you know what now, Yeah, I don't know. You know now, what do you think in two thousand and five? Cool? It's very horrified. Four armed very cool? You know what's cool? More? Yeah? As a person now where I'm like, I think the best lightsaber fight is the Force Awakens because there's a lot of tension, which is true actually being one of my least favorite Star Wars movies, I think I think it's the least favorite because the first thirty minutes of that movie rips, and then the lightsaber fight at the end of that movie is so good and brutal. Yeah, I I I contend to the best ones in the Last Jedi in the Throne Room. That's trust me. It's just Fatten, but one of the best thing seen in my life. Ryan Johnson understands populist cinema. Yeah, so okay, so no, no, no, go back to tell me. This is my U of the three iterations of Grievous, my least favorite, but I still fucking love him and I will not be I will not be apologizing your your new favorites being,

1:43:18 of course the two D it is getting dragged away by a Chu train. My second favorite is just The Clone Wars, where he's also great, which I gotta say, in your Grievous rankings, I'm taking a huge V on my victory wall, which you know it's conveniently you know. Yeah, it's the Venturess. I like the Venturess of the Clone Wars better, but I do love the Ventures of Clone Wars. Irses about aesthetics. The Clone Wars is worried about story. You have to understand how much I love Grievous. Everybody who hates him, I'm like, I love his like four he's he's he's got a collections arms it apart and anyways, I'm talking about the soulless one. That's but he can also crawl like a weird bug I saw Clone Wars. Okay, he's horrific. I love him. Go on, speaking of horrific, the soulless one is anything but the aspen defying shark joke.

1:44:18 I think it is a beautiful homage to art deco looks, it's silver, its shiny, kind of looks like the animated series Batmobile in terms of the cockpit being all the way in the back of the rest of the ship is just engine. I love starships that look clean and sleek and shiny. It just is cool. This isn't the one I'm thinking of, but I like this one. The one I was talking about is the shuttle that comes out like the escape shuttle at the very beginning. But this is beautiful. The big ball Yeah, but it's like shortened fat anyway, shark. Yeah, how many times can I say it? I love this ship. Oh my gosh, you're right, this is a good choice. Well, what other ships do you like asthma, romantic ships, romantic ships. Here's my romantic ship. Let me think about it, Let me think, let me think, let me think, let me think. I got this, I got this, I got this. There's so many things to choose from. It's always so funny. I always really think about the ships these days, but I always forget about the romantic ship. I'm gonna go for what's his name?

1:45:40 Not a great start asment the formerly enslaved man Spartacus. What's his name? Not Spartacus Marcus, Marthas Gallivant, Gavantus, Grantibus. Wowly Maximus Kendalus, I remember, because I am the star trek Quintus embarrassing Aurelius Marcus. Well, anyway, man Flavius Flavius, because I wrote down the great joke that is really good Flavius and McCoy. So Flavius is introduced at the beginning.

1:46:30 They're actually found by this this group of sun worshippers, which, wow, what a surprise. Oh Jesus kill me. And he's all like, I don't know, and they he gets captured with them, and he's like forced to fight in these gladiatorial games, and he's specifically forced to fight against McCoy, which he's very upset about. The other guy just like starts going out Spock, but it's him and McCoy, who is not nearly as strong as Spock is. Of course, he's not a fighter, he's a doctor.

1:47:10 He's doctrinal a fighter, and uh, he's trying not to hurt him, and he's clearly very upset, and all the while he's getting like whipped and told that he's going to tank the ratings if he doesn't actually fight him, and he I just feel like that is a beautiful connection of him trying to care for him and take care of him, and you know that they had like a little thing as they were going back and forth with their little sword fight. Also later on, because he's a badass, he sacrifices himself to save Spot, to save Kirk comes out and he's just extraordinary. And then afterwards McCoy's just like flavious and he's just like, oh no, and he's just like, well, Buggy says something like, oh what a guy.

1:48:00 Oh no, your lost dead love. That's mine, that's my ship. Let's see some of my joke answers could be Count Dooku and his head. What loves his head? Uh? And he dies without it, that's how much he loves it. Um. It could be Aura and Jesus. Oh my god, those are good joke answers. You I'm going to go with Bail and his wife. Oh I almost said that. Let's talking about Jimmy Smith's who is in episodes two and three as Bai. Yep, he might be too good for these movies. M hm. Of course many of the actors are too good for these movies. True, who was not too good for these movies? Anthony Daniels. So that's really funny. That's really I apologize. That's much spicier than I usually am. It kind of got a little bit of assholey about it. Oh, I don't know. Yeah, screw you, Tony, but you can be spicyer if you like.

1:49:16 You should bleep yourself out. I agree. But at the end of the movie and that terrible last fifteen minutes though, I do like it whenever Yoda's meditating and it's just silent, which I'm really glad that they didn't. I think he was supposed to be community with QUI gone right there. There's some sort of deleted scene, but instead it's just silence, and I think that's yeah, it's really so much better. And then Mail comes up and is like master Yoda, and then really good animation animators. I gotta say, whenever Yoda painfully opens his eyes, Well, they worked really hard on it.

1:49:57 I can tell you having watched the serious about that. No, I'm not saying that sarcastically from the from Peppets to Pixels where they talk about that last shot and calling it the widow Maker, which is so funny, right, But anyways, James Smith's having to sell, uh, my wife and I will take the girl. We've always been a little girl. But it's really beautiful though, like the way he says it, there is there is history behind there. Yeah, Like it is very gentle and it's very lovely. We'll take the girl, like we wanted to adopt a girl. And I'm like, that's nice, Like sounds like if you're adopting, maybe it's possible that like you, maybe you want to adopt and that's like a goal of yours or maybe like you are able to conceive and you know, but it's like it feels like, oh, what is the line? Though he said something like she will be loved with us, which is a beautiful line.

1:50:59 And that's why George Lucas is probably one of our greatest writers. I think, Yeah, I mean I actually find that you're but you're right. It is like the power of his performance that's like this is being sold because he's saying it with like, and he's a good actor and with a lot of earnestness, and it's a very beautiful little Sanathian where they're holding clumsy building the parts to the bridge. Yi yi, Yi, wait, what are you talking about? The clumsy bridge of the last fifteen minutes of that movie where they're like, oh, we'll take Luke over here, Lee is gonna come over here, Patmey is gonna die over here. We're gonna literally built a death star on camera, so you understand, and we're going to end on a shot of Owen and Burrow looking at the twin sons of Tattoo.

1:52:00 Gross. Yeah, I guess that's how. That's how, because that's also how this equal trilogians too, right, except that movie never happens, so just kidding, I don't know what's happening. The shouldn't happen. That's the Last walkersaka it's a great earnest note to end on where they're trying to break the loop. They're trying to break the power loop. Yeah, break it because they don't understand that there are larger neoliberal forces at work. Yes, exactly, which is why the stuff on Canto Bite is actually engaging, because it's starting to talk take Star Wars into class narratives as opposed to good and evil and recognizing imagine if and Or had just ended with them going to Tattoo and looking at the Twins. I think every Star Wars felt should end with them looking at the twin sums, so we can understand every one of them ends. They're they're all like, they're all like Puck. We have because times say we got to go to Tatoya. But speaking of all good things coming to an end, including saga's, this saga is now complete as we come to the central conceit of this podcast by ranking which one is better Star Trek or Star Wars. Once again, Breadon circuses the penn ultimate episode of season two, Star Trek, the original series verse Star Wars episode three, Revenge of the Set. I believe I went second last time, so Bredon Circuses, I will give a good faith eight. Ah. I thought it

1:53:38 was great. I don't feel like giving a Spie ranking, even though I asked in very much said why I should give a Spie ranking, and I believe their reasons. I agree. I'm not telling you to give it a SPI rank. What I'm telling you I will give it a SPY rank. I didn't. You can see it on the spreadsheet. I give bread and Circus an uh. Yeah, I said why this is a great episode. I think it's surprisingly subversive given the time and given the environment that is coming up, and and you know, I find the clunkiness endearing because Star Trek has many things, including clunky, and I think the clunk is a feature, not a bug. But your mileage may very speaking of milage may vary.

1:54:23 Asmen, what do you think of bredon Sexes? No, I like that it's clunky. I mean I think it's you know, if it weren't for like the most destructive pieces of an episode, just or just like the recklessness of it, I probably would have given it a smon. Mom, I given it too. You do love this just like fuck off Roddenberry, like get out of my face. So you think that he should have stayed with writing his robin Hood pilot. Yeah, go write your little robin Hood pilot. Why don't just go cheat on your second, third, fourth wife? Just get out of here first. Hey, that dude cheating on this first. I just assume he cheats on all of them. Yes, yes, he did get out of here. But we're not getting just yet.

1:55:12 Working as a personal Roddenberry Vendetic podcast, yeah uh. As we come into Star Wars episode three, Revenge of the Seth, I'm looking at the spreadsheet, I'm looking and I'm seeing that I rank episode one a four point seven? What you did? What did I? I ranked to like a six point something, right, six point four, which is more than four point seven. And then I ranked because I was somehow like, oh my god, why I was attack at the clones working for me like a six or something. I could also look at the spreadsheet and you don't have to just tell me. I'm gonna go for it. In a surprising upset even to myself think I'm going to give Revenge of the Sith, no, no, no ultimate power. But the highs of Revenge of the Sith are higher than phantom Menace even though phantom menaces are more coffee Bob. I wish I were high. Wait, this is truly difficult. I'm going for it. I'm gonna give it a five. That's funny, That's exactly what I was going to give it. And I'm mad at it. Yeah, I was gonna I was like, I'm gonna give it a five. I thought you were gonna go for like a six or something seven point six, Like I aim to be aspect? What aspect? Yeah? Two weeks in a row.

1:56:46 No, we got times wait think oh my god, oh my god, uh my jaws on the floor. We got two weeks where well, well, last week was a raturous celebration of the things that we love both about both franchises. This week was us pulling both of our collective callers and being like, are we sure that we want to commit to the premise of this podcast for the rest of our times on this planet? Our time with our loved ones certainly is finite. It is that I think every time I get upset, I'm like, Kenny did this to me? Listen, It's worth it. It's worth it every single time. But also one of the joys about Star Wars Star Wars is many things, is what. It's not just the Skywalkers saga. It's not just aesthetics or nostalgic. It's many, very very rarely only so far, because now we are coming to the end of one section of Star Wars. Very rarely does it like phone it in.

1:58:19 It's always trying to say something. I think. I think that's true so far. Yes, yes, maybe if we were to rewatch Droids again reevaluate and not be saying anythink you're right. Maybe not Droids and he walks. But even then there was still craftsmanship. I don't know. Sometimes Star Trek bones it in. Sometimes Star Wars. Both of these things bone it in. They do. I mean, I appreciate the Star Trek is trying to say something at all, especially in the time period that it is saying it. Even when it lets me down, I'm still like, thank you for daying anything at all. Yep. Then maybe the difference isn't that these things don't ever phone it in, but maybe it's us roll my eyes. Here we go being sincere about our parasocial relationships with both these inanimate objects, but we never phone it in in terms of trying to find value and meaning Oh that's really nice, skinny, because it's not like we just love these things, but this is what it means to love something holy and completely even whenever.

1:59:39 Much like Abed in the season six of Community TV, is allowed to have a bad day, Yeah, so too are Star Trek and Star Wars and as part of the joy of being a fan of being like but like, let's take them at their word. Oh no, it made me cry. That's really nice. Let's let's let's believe in the magic that's here. And uh, there's a whole lot of people that worked extremely hard on this thing that we love down to our bones. So let's give it the benefit of the down even whenever they do die because they have a broken heart. Oh god, I don't Maybe the broken heart was the friends we made along the way. Speaking of friends that we made along the way, Uh, why don't you go, you know, go be our friend on social media?

2:00:33 Okay, yeah, that's good. You can follow us on Instagram and please s guy at Trek purs Pod. Additionally, you can send us an email Trek Word Pod at gmail dot com. Doctor Tiffany Noll, of course, got in touch with us last week and I shot her an email this way. That's pretty sweet. I know it really is cool. And then not only that, you can go sign up for our Patreon patreon dot com slash trek Wars pod, where for five dollars a month you can get either early versions of these episodes and extended versions of episodes and chat with us uh like our Cannon friend Arizona Mark. Oh yeah, Rice in uh hey, I'm paraphrasing, but here's where the pairaphrasing stops. You definitely need to watch the Lego Star Wars content. It's great and super fun. Now, how do you feel about a statement like that? Aspen fine content? Can you just you are grabbing me by the collar and holding me over a fire?

2:01:42 It's fine? Oh, it's fine. Okay, that's fine. I'm fine, outstanding. You love to see it. I'm doing opera singing from the opera sing Additionally, Arizona Mark takes umbrage with the label Arizona Mark by saying cool to hear a review from Syracuse, New York as I used to live thirty minutes away from there for the first twenty five years of my life. And again, that's Arizona Mark, that's Canon's name. We will not change it that since a wiki. Ah, so we should make a wiki.

2:02:27 We should make a wiki, and maybe some of our patrons would make a wiki. Some of those patrons are Tempo de Sosa, thank you so much for your patronage, Emily, Bryce Love, Heidi Rogers, Kevin Miller, Mark Vibert, Aaron Science, and lastly, but certainly not Leasli Joelty Partner, who not only composed the Ice Starship At theme song but also contributed verbally to the podcast today. Yeah, and then not only did he contribute that, but also mister tosin Awfasso, who wrote our intro and outro music. Thank you. You can go find a bore of his work and use his expertise as a musician. In the show notes below, Aspen, Yeah, we're coming to the end. Yeah, that's here we are. We're about to start to a really excited part of the podcast, a part that I really have a blind spot and I am excited for you to hold my hand through this brand new adventure as Star Wars begins to change into something completely different.

2:03:35 Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Oh first we have to watch that shitty movie, but that's okay. After that, Yeah, that's all right. I love you. I love you, audience, we love you, and may the Force be with you and live long and prosper, and also live long and prospering, and also with the you h you sleepy baby again. It's like poetry. So if they rhyde mh