Wrath of Khan v. Empire Strikes Back

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Welcome to the Track Wars podcast,
the Internet's only source for answering the one

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question, the most important question and
fandom, Which is better Star Wars or

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Star Trek. I am Kenny Madison, the Star Trek contingent with me,

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as we always to the co host
with the host, ask my webster,

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and you are here, but you
also represent intersectional post post third wave feminism.

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It's me representing Star Wars. Hey, you asked me, and you

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are correct, and we will get
into all of that. And speaking of

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getting into all of that, we
welcome. I guess so we've been scheduling,

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coordinating with for a while. We're
very pleased to have you. Uh

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what what are your credits? Player
in the band Fragile Rock, I do

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father lover frand future future therapist with
both of you future therapists. That's right,

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Thank you remember that. Oh listen, I've been through it. I

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know you have. We havenaid you're
your cautionary tale. Oh no, Ryan

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M. Hill, thank you so
much for joining us here on the Track

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Wars podcasts. You're welcome. I'm
happy to be here. I feel so

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so so lucky that I'm here for
these two films, Like I mean we

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spoilers, but we kind of coordinating
these films for you. And also we're

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just pleased as punched to be able
to talk with these as we pull a

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theme out of comparison episode as we
talk Empire Strikes Back versus Star Trek two

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The Wrath of Khan. I genuinely
think that this is like the cream of

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the crop of both franchises. Like
for me, this is like probably the

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best of both franchises. So I
mean, it's I don't want to make

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it be so absolute, but these
two films are very high in either franchise

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for me. My dude, my
dude was watching My guy, my Dudoni.

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I was watching Empire rewatching last night
and I just went, fuck,

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this movie is so good. And
I'd watched I'd watched Rathacon a little bit

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back, and I also in the
middle of that, went this is so

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good. So when I heard you
guys talk about the motion picture, I

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have a huge soft spot for the
motion picture, for Star Trek the motion

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picture, and so when I heard
you guys talk about it, I was

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like, no, it's really awesome. I love that movie. And I

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was, and I was because I
do, and and I was going on,

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and then when I was, and
so when I kind of went into

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Rathakon, I watched it today and
I was kind of like, eh,

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whatever, and oh my god,
Wrath of Khn is so good good,

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It's just so good. And an
Empire is like my favorite piece of Star

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Wars too, So yeah. One, and also I need to like,

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since you guys said you represent this, you represent that. I don't think

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I represent either Star Trek or Star
Wars super strongly, but what I care

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you, but what I do is
a bite. I know. I love

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it when you guys say that because
I know because I know you're both that

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you're saying it with intense sarcasm.
I love it when you guys say artist

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and binary. It's fine because even
like Kenny, even when you do your

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ship on Facebook where you're like rank
your top blah blah blah, I'm like,

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I'm like, this is so fucking
stupid. They all have different qualities.

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They're all you don't rankings are dumb, Like, I don't you know?

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That's that's me? Can you do
that over on Facebook? He just

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texts me, I don't go on
Facebook, so that's not why you just

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text me that I mean I can
text you my rankings. I mean,

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well, no you you know all
the time he's like, asks your top

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ten, this as your top ten, and I get it. What it

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is is it just a way to
talk about the different qualities of the movies,

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and it's a weight and it's cool. It's fine, it's fun.

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But I think we can all agree
that our subminary stinky dudek Rise of Skywalker

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was which one the last one?
Ex Yeah, that's my favorite of the

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new ones anyway. Yeah, sorry. Star Trek two I really was released

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on June fourth, nineteen eighty two. Oh my god, I love this.

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It was released when June fourth,
nineteen eighty two, the famous You're

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in nineteen eighty two, That is
right with nerd properties freshman year in high

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school, right, And that's that's
something else I wanted to say. I

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definitely represent the like I don't want
to say o G Star Wars Star Trek

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fan, because I don't want to
be thought that I thought that I'm an

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asshole. But but like I saw
Star Wars in the theater with my father.

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I saw Star Trek the motion picture
in the theater with my father.

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I got familiar with Star Trek the
original series, because my dad would watch

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it in syndication and I would sit
next to him and watch it and like

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and then and I and I saw
Rise of Skywalker in the theater with my

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dad sitting next to him, and
that was like the last movie we saw

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together. So there you go.
Oh fine, fine, I guess you

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can like that movie because of your
emotional kind ofction. Pull up, It's

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okay. We got complicated feelings about
things. Yes, art is sometimes subject

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and that's kind of like something I've
been thinking a lot about when I'm thinking

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about talking to you guys, is
that it's impossible for me to separate my

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experience of all these movies from the
context of my whole fucking life. I

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mean, Star Wars taught me about
interacting with fiction. I mean it like,

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that's like that was what I grew
up with, was Star Wars.

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Like when I first saw I waited
in line for hours to see Empire Strikes

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Back on the day it came out
nineteen eighty. Yeah, I was twelve

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years old and I waited for hours
with my friend Sean o'reiley and he's little

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Irish and we and I was devastated
at the ending, and I was shocked

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that Darth Vader was Luke's father.
Oh sorry spoiler, but this is really

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helpful. I want us to keep
talking about it. I was actually thinking

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that as I was rewatching it,
because you know, I'm obviously seen it

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billions of times I was sitting I
watched it once before. Yeah, for

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this podcast. Well, I was
thinking about it because I knew. I

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knew Ryan that you had you wanted
to do these films because of seeing them

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in the theaters and like seeing them
with their dad and seeing them with your

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friends and how they struck you at
the time. So I was very I

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was very specifically watching it thinking what
would like baby ryan be feelings, And

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when he said no, I am
your father, was like, this must

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have been the most incredible moment.
Nobody I knew. It wasn't like now

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when there's like leaks and fandom and
shit. Nobody fucking knew. Nobody knew.

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Some people but not many people knew. Some people knew, and it

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it. I think I might have
heard it before the film and not believed

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it. And then like, because
Sean o'reiley, aforementioned friend, he was

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like any level of film geek and
he actually Kubrick would have directed it better,

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exactly so, and I think Sean
might have like read it in a

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fanzine or something that it was a
rumor or something, you know, because

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and so anyway, but yeah,
it was mind blowing, mind blowing.

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Ever seen anything like it before?
So, yeah, this is great.

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We'll talk, we'll talk. Yeah, we're we'll talk more about that.

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But also, real quick, real
quick, your experience, your it's just

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just can you do quick how you
felt if that was like mind blowing to

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you two years later when you watch
Wrath of Cohn at theaters? How was

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that to you? Did? Okay, so this is the way Ethic con

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felt to me at the time,
and it felt very different when I watched

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it today. But I didn't see
it with my dad. I saw it

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on my I think. But uh, the the biggest thing in Wrath of

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kN was Spock's death. That was
the biggest thing. Like that was the

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oh my god, Spock died,
right, And that scene, of course

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is just like blow the top of
your head off, right, but iconic

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scene. But I was actually,
god, it's so hard to remember,

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you know, how fucking long ago
this was. Yes, And I was

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fourteen and now you do math and
that's why old I am, and so

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I think so to me. At
the time, Ratha Khan felt thank you.

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So to me. At the time, Wrath of Khan felt like like

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the motion picture felt very heady and
very esoteric and very which I have a

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soft spot for. I love that
stuff, right, and I love the

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long shots of star fields with weird
music. I love that ship. Although

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I no longer do drugs anyway,
But the most picture is a vibes movie,

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yes, and I love vibes,
and so I felt like I think

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at the time that Wrath of con
was a bit was a return to like

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fun action, which was simultaneously kind
of cool and kind of a disappointment.

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And it actually reminds me of more
recent things in the film franchise where they

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where it's gotten more militaristic and more
action oriented and less heady, which I

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do feel like is sort of a
betrayal of the original Star Trek. But

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anyway, yeah, I know,
but I have my own opinions. It's

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very odd sait, do you have
okay right now? Right now, we

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have to do this thing. We
have to do a real quick thing.

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But do you have opinions on the
militarism and Star Trek. That's complicated,

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as I'm sure you're aware, Yes, so excited, and it's so weird

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too, because like, just through
listening to this podcast, I feel like

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I have my appreciation for Star Trek
has gone up. And and if I'm

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gonna be honest, like I was, Yeah, I was much more of

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the Star Trek Star Wars contingent when
I first started this listening to y'all's podcast,

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and I feel like it's kind of
evened out. Okay, well,

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Ryan, I've had to watch so
many Walks episodes well and and okay,

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and I'll tell you what. I
was really pissed off when you guys even

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deigned to include the Holiday special at
all. Sorry, it's like the Cannon,

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It's ship and why would you include
it, because because it's too it's

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a part, it's part of the
story of Star Wars, part of the

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story of Star Wars. You're right, because but I'm taking up too much

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space ahead, No, you're not
right. You're great because the greatest film

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has retro actually been like curating parts
of the Cannon. But like's at one

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point, like all of it was
on the table, like all on the

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table, and Star Wars has been
able to change so many times, and

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for me, the anthropological study of
that, I hope that I'm using anthropological

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correctly. Probably not, but we're
always but the Star Wars fandom is constantly

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trying to go back to that feeling
in nineteen seventy seven. Constantly. Yes,

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Star Wars has been so many different
permutations and permeations, but then it

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always always attempts to go back to
that feeling in seventy seven. Yes,

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And that's what I love about knowing
people like Aspen and my friend friend Cindy

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Page, who you also both know, because these are people women that a

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month they happen to be women that
experienced Star Wars in such a different way

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than I did and later and and
I love them both, and so when

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they talk about Star Wars, I
have to like, like, it's like,

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I have to realize that my experience
of Star Wars is not the only

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one, you know, So it's
yeah, so it's uh, it's it's

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cool to Cindy kind of taught me
that and then listening to you guys on

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this she you know, we would
have conversations about Star Wars and she would

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be like, Okay, let me
tell you how I got into Star Wars.

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And she would talk about like the
animated shows, and she would talk

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about comic books. And because she's
lot, you know, she's like twenty

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fifteen, twenty years younger than me
or something, and so so I had

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to like she taught me to like, oh not everybody like saw it in

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the theaters when they were ten years
old, you know. So yeah,

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so yeah, yeah, and that
my experience, even though it's very easy

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because you know, I saw it
in the theaters when I was ten years

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old. It's very easy for me
to like say that that's more valid somehow,

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but it's not. So you know. Yeah, speaking of valid,

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I think it is valid that,
even though we are a ways in,

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I think we should do some quick
synopsies and give some credits for these two

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pieces. Yeah. Yeah, I
saw what was the when I was about

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to Okay, I didn't rewatch Empire
because I've seen it so many times.

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I wish I had, but I
have two small children and I don't have

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time. But the synopsis was something
like there was a two sentence synopsis on

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the Disney the Disney streaming thing like
something like Luke Skywalker trains to be a

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Jedi. That was the second the
second one. The first one was like

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the Rebels flee from the Empire and
Luke Skywalker trains to be a Jedi.

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That showed me where, show me
where it's wrong, actually where it's wrong.

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Very a very succinctcinct summary. Ah, you know, okay, I'll

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go ahead start well. Star Wars
episode of five, The Empire strikes back,

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as you mentioned, a released June
eighteenth, nineteen a d h RG

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director Ervin Kirshner and of course writers
Lawrence Kasden, and the screenplay was Kasden

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and Lee Brackett, and of course
the story by George Lucas. I'm gonna

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find there's a good one in here. I liked. I've gone so long

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with summaries by just whatever IMDb gives
me for Ewoks that I'm just so pleased

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to have this back from Evan Almindo
on IMDb. The legendary saga continues as

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the Rebel Alliance faces increasing challenges from
the powerful Galactic Empire. Luke Skywalker,

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Han Solo, and Princess Leiragana find
themselves confronting new trials that tests their courage,

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friendships, and beliefs true. The
rebel alliance has estap a hidden base

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on the icy planet Apoth, where
they hope to regroup and plan their next

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moves against the Empire. Luke Skywalker
receives a message from a familiar source,

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prompting him to seek further guidance and
understand his connection to the Force. Han

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Solo and Princess Leia's journey takes him
on a perilous path as they navigate through

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a galaxy under imperial control. This
is funny. It is so vague you

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could rate this and literally be like
what happens in this movie. Their actions

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and decisions lead to unforeseen consequences that
will impact the fate of the rebellion.

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Meanwhile, the dark presence of Darth
Vader looms as he relentlessly pursues the rebels

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while dealing with inner conflicts of his
own. How fascinating. I wouldn't have

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thought to put it that way,
Evan. Okay, it probably was why

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this's little wre specific, but I
think we all know what happens and empires

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to expect. Indeed, Meanwhile,
over here Star Trek two, The Wrath

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of Khan released June fourth, nineteen
eighty two, directed by Nicholas Meyer,

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credited screenplay by jack Bie Sowers from
a story by her Bennett jack Bie Swards,

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and uncredited Nicholas Meyer on that as
well. From my plot synopsis by

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from Variety. Star Trek two is
a very satisfying space adventure, closer in

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spirit and format to the popular TV
series than to its big budget predecessor.

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Story is nominally Squeal Go Ahead.
It is so funny because it's literally based

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off of So was the first Yeah, well that's what I mean. I

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mean, sorry, Russia picture was
actually Conn is Ryan Conn is like the

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continuation of an episode. Honey,
We'll get into it. Story is nominally

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a sequel to the TV episode Space
Seat, with Starship Reliant Captain Terrell Paul

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Winfield Commander check Off Walter Kannig incorrectly
landing on a planet on an exploration mission.

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This allows the evil Khan Ricardo Montaban, who's around there with his family

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and crew fifteen years before by Kirk
Walliam Shatner, to take over the Reliant

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and bow Revenge h Kirk Admiral Kirk
is cooked to take command once again of

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the Starship Enterprise on a training mission, travels to the regular Space Station on

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the rescue mission doctor Carrol Marcus B. B. Beash and her and Kirk's

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son David Merret Beatrick. I've been
working there on a Genesis project to convert

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Barren planets and the even sources of
life. Cohn has stolen the Genesis effect

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equipment. Also, in the Final
Realized, a classic of emotional manipulations,

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Spockgun hesitatingly calculates that he must sacrifice
himself to say the Enterprise crew anyways,

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I start trek to the wrath of
Khan. Anyway. That's it. And

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Ryan saw both of them in theaters. That's cool. I saw first release.

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I saw Empire on a little VHS
tape from Blockbuster and my tiny little

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TV. And that is also fucking
cool. And I'm certain it really is.

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I'm certain that I watched both of
these movies whenever I was like a

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newborn, right. I didn't see
Ratha Con I think until my early twenties

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because my family had the the first
five TS movies in a sick box set

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and those were just on rotation.
And then not only that, but we

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had the Star Wars trilogy on one
VHS tape and whatever. My mom would

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need to go do something of the
other room and like take a shower or

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something, she would just put that
on and I would watch Star Wars.

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Star Wars the Star Wars trilogy was
quite literally the first things that I watched.

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A you guys, my computer is
unplugged. I need to stand up

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and it's gonna be a thing.
So give me a couple of seconds here,

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Okay, we're gonna note it.
We're gonna note it in the time.

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We're gonna note it. You noting
it. I noted it too.

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Thank you, aspen Kenny. Oh
my god. Uh so you being the

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Star Wars contingent, Uh you watched
Star Trek two a while ago. In

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preparation for this episode, I did, what is your what is your history

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with this? With this movie?
Uh? Yeah, I'm almost certain that

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I watched it in my early twenties. I think I've mentioned this that I

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came in to start right Star Trek
because I was living in a lovely little

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home with four of my friends in
Summerville, Massachusetts, and I we all

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really loved watching original series Star Trek, and so it must have been that

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in that time we watched we watched
Wrath of Kahn, so I would imagine

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I was probably twenty three or something, but I so I remembered watching it.

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I remember things as I was rewatching
it. I remember thinking, yes,

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I've seen this before, and then
I also remember thinking, damn,

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this is good. So that's mine. You. Yes, like this movie.

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I love this movie. This movie
is I mean obviously im biased,

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yeah, but there is. I
I'm very excited to talk about this movie.

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So I talked about this movie and
just position with Empire Strikes Back.

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It's a stunning movie. Stunning both
stunning. Both are what is interesting in

257
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doing the research for trying to find
it for a synopsis for this movie.

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And I wanted to go back to
see to just find a synopsis from back

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then. Yeah, and I pulled
this from Variety. And what is interesting

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is to see critics at the time
kind of dismiss it as standard popcorn fair.

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Meanwhile, now in the current landscape
of Blockbuster sin about this feels like

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water in the desert. Yeah,
because of how articulate it is. I'm

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talking about starts, but also this
could very much be applying to Empire Strikes

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Back in terms of how character first
they are character forward, all of these

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decisions motivated by character decisions. Yeah, unless you need like a couple plat

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conveniences. Whether an empire is just
the forest or Star Trek too, you

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just which is just like Genesis?
Yeah, like things happened to be there

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because you want the characters to get
back together. But other than that,

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never like a matt It is just
wild that Star Trek two gets the formula

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right and is also a meditation on
aging out of relevance. Dude, Okay,

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I forgot that that was the intense
focus of this movie when I was

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watching today. I'm fifty five years
old it and my dad died a year

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and a half ago. It was
so intense, and my five year old

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boy was like coming in and out
of the room and sitting down next to

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me occasionally while I'm watching it and
seeing little parts of it and asking me

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about it. It was so intense
watching it today, just because I forgot

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that it was about aging and facing
death. It's about facing death. The

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movie is it's like they it's the
words are spoken and and it's about you've

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never faced death yes away? Well
yeah, and it blew me away that.

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And it's also about fathers and sons, just like Emperor strikes back.

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Is it just general or you know
he could even you should it should be

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generalized more too, just generational stuff, but it was. It's just it's

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just so fucking good. I'm gonna
be very inarticulate. I'm just gonna be

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going like, it's, oh my
god, they're so good. They're just

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so good. Look, I'm gonna
jump to the thematic that is most common

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for me, the thing that first
jumps to my mind with both of these

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00:25:07.319 --> 00:25:15.000
properties, and both of these pieces
are deconstructions of the formative piece of media

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that they are based on. Hear
that again, Yeah, both of these

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00:25:18.799 --> 00:25:23.680
pieces. Star Trek two and Empire
are deconstructions of the formative media that these

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are based on. I don't understand
what you're saying. I so if I

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let me see, let me say
I got this. So if you I

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see so, they're so, they're
so. Empire is a deconstruction of Star

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Wars of a New Hope and and
Star Trek two is a deconstruction of the

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original series, or of you correctly
being like, this isn't encapsulating the TV

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00:25:52.599 --> 00:25:59.000
series, And to a degree,
you're right, what It is sequelizing.

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It is sequelizing the concept of Star
Trek. It is taking the episodic formula

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of Star Trek and going those seventy
nine times that Kirk flew away at the

298
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end or seventy eight. Seventy nine
is the one Pike episode. But the

299
00:26:18.279 --> 00:26:23.079
seventy eight times that he flew away
were actually him making mistakes, right because

300
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he never stuck around. Yeah,
I agree, they are. I agree,

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And I think that's why they're both
so successful is because they took the

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00:26:32.440 --> 00:26:37.680
original thing and they did something more
with it, and they and that's why

303
00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:44.559
I that's why I dislike so much
of other parts about these franchises. But

304
00:26:44.680 --> 00:26:48.000
go ahead, Oh, this is
really funny because can I just tell you,

305
00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:49.839
as I was rewatching Empire, and
I wasn't thinking this is much for

306
00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:52.519
the Wrath of Gon because we don't
have a well, I was thinking about

307
00:26:52.519 --> 00:26:56.880
it with Wrath of Gon because I
was thinking about lower decks and how lower

308
00:26:56.000 --> 00:27:00.000
decks very purposefully. The whole point
of it is its second contact. So

309
00:27:00.279 --> 00:27:03.880
it's after first contact they actually come
back and there's a lot of kind of

310
00:27:04.119 --> 00:27:08.680
humor in the what has happened after
first contact? Worthy effects so there is

311
00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:12.519
a commentary on it in the future. So I was thinking about these movies

312
00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:19.799
and current day, current day parts
of their franchises and how they are then

313
00:27:19.880 --> 00:27:23.920
commenting on them, which they themselves
were commenting on earlier forms of them.

314
00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:27.319
And I do think that there's an
interesting conversation though, and so those kind

315
00:27:27.319 --> 00:27:30.400
of things like lower decks with this
and others. Of course, that's playing

316
00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:33.440
with it and making fun of it. Frankly, last Jedi is in a

317
00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:37.720
deconstruction. I think of a lot
of stuff that happens in Empire, and

318
00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:45.039
so I do really like a deconstruction
because I want to know what you believe

319
00:27:45.160 --> 00:27:48.200
in. I want to know.
And I think that especially with something like

320
00:27:48.279 --> 00:27:55.640
Star Wars, it has that we
have a tendency to wax on about the

321
00:27:56.640 --> 00:28:00.000
space opera grandness of it. And
I think that we've talked we've talked about

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00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:04.160
this when we're talking about Empire before. Of like it made people feel uncomfortable.

323
00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:10.759
It was not so precise in terms
of it's nice, like kind ending

324
00:28:10.960 --> 00:28:15.680
and part of our hero's journey.
It was it hurt. You imagine imagine

325
00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:21.880
imagine baby Ryan, Imagine twelve year
old Ryan going to see that movie after

326
00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:26.559
being a humongous Star Wars fan.
He is twelve years old. He sees

327
00:28:26.599 --> 00:28:30.559
the end of that movie. I
was I That's why it's so hard for

328
00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:33.759
me to separate it from its context, because it had such a huge influence

329
00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:40.640
on me, Like I was so
hurt and confused and just like didn't know

330
00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:45.079
and then I and then I ended
up loving it, Like, oh,

331
00:28:45.240 --> 00:28:48.640
can you say more? Okay?
Yeah, what did that process look like

332
00:28:48.759 --> 00:28:52.759
for you? Oh? God,
it's I don't remember all of it,

333
00:28:52.079 --> 00:28:57.839
but let me let me see if
I can, baby Ryan Baby, Yeah,

334
00:28:59.119 --> 00:29:03.640
right, plus years ago, Ryan. And it's hard to remember things

335
00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:06.839
for that long ass when you don't
know that yet, but you will.

336
00:29:08.440 --> 00:29:11.680
I mean, I don't know.
I have like an eighteen year old in

337
00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:15.960
my m BROV class and she was
saying stuff and I was like, I

338
00:29:15.079 --> 00:29:18.839
have no idea what you're saying to
me. And I just watched you do

339
00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:22.480
a cart already weird, aren't you? Are you in your thirties? Yeah?

340
00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:26.039
Can you try the same ash?
Okay? Are you guys like mid

341
00:29:26.079 --> 00:29:30.960
thirties? Yeah? Okay, all
right, thirty five, thirty four okay,

342
00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:34.119
okay. I got about twenty twenty
years in it. But so,

343
00:29:36.599 --> 00:29:38.799
but it's also wrapped up in all
this. Like I was in high school

344
00:29:40.359 --> 00:29:45.480
and I was studying literature and I
ended up getting an English degree, and

345
00:29:45.599 --> 00:29:47.720
so I'm like, well, this
is when I yeah, right, this

346
00:29:47.839 --> 00:29:51.599
is when I become the part of
Kenny that I find so annoying. But

347
00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:57.160
I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding, but this is when I but like

348
00:29:59.079 --> 00:30:03.440
I actually study the hero's journey in
English class, like and so you know,

349
00:30:03.640 --> 00:30:08.000
all that all that stuff that supposedly
George was so into and everything and

350
00:30:08.119 --> 00:30:18.240
so the which now I study in
psychology classes. But anyway, it's it's

351
00:30:18.279 --> 00:30:26.599
so hard to I like, I
think the most the like sort of least

352
00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:30.640
generous to myself interpretation I could give
of that process that you're asking about,

353
00:30:30.680 --> 00:30:41.200
Aspen is that I had to like
Star Wars and so I figured out how

354
00:30:41.079 --> 00:30:48.240
why the Empire strikes back was awesome
because I had to, And it stuck,

355
00:30:49.240 --> 00:30:52.319
and it's stuck with me my whole
life. And that's why it's impossible

356
00:30:52.359 --> 00:30:59.480
for me to separate out context.
Like I still to this day have a

357
00:30:59.599 --> 00:31:03.440
really hard hard time with happy Hollywood
endings. Of course, when I was

358
00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:07.920
a kid, I loved them right, and I think the Empire stracks back

359
00:31:07.079 --> 00:31:12.559
was the turning point was when I
started to appreciate something other than happy Hollywood

360
00:31:12.680 --> 00:31:18.759
endings. And and also when I
started to see, God, this is

361
00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:22.480
this is getting big. But when
I started to see that life was not

362
00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:26.599
a happy Hollywood ending, that you
could lose your hand and find out your

363
00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:32.400
father was an asshole. It was
it was like you that it was.

364
00:31:32.839 --> 00:31:38.799
It was so big in my in
the formation of me that it's like so

365
00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:41.640
hard to like, yeah, anyway, you look like you really want to

366
00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:44.359
speak, so no, no,
no, I'm just having a lot of

367
00:31:44.440 --> 00:31:49.720
emotional reactions. It's just it was
so big, like I I and I

368
00:31:49.799 --> 00:31:52.359
don't know that that like I do, like I said, that's the least

369
00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:56.039
generous interpretation to myself that I could
give, and I don't know that it's

370
00:31:56.119 --> 00:32:00.200
true, like one hundred percent.
I think that's definitely part of what was

371
00:32:00.279 --> 00:32:05.680
going on. It could also be
argued that, like I was just maturing

372
00:32:06.319 --> 00:32:13.640
and recognizing that, like recognizing that
happy endings kind of leave something to be

373
00:32:13.799 --> 00:32:16.519
desired. It's like they're just not
like they're not it's easy to relate to

374
00:32:16.599 --> 00:32:21.599
because life is not a happy ending. You know it's like that's and so

375
00:32:21.960 --> 00:32:27.599
that's why Empire was so formative for
me. I mean, I think this

376
00:32:28.599 --> 00:32:35.960
speaks to the intent of both of
these films, radically attempting to emotionally ground

377
00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:42.839
the characters and something that is less
space opera ish and more make them real.

378
00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:47.640
Yes, I don't want to say
make them real, because realism is

379
00:32:47.720 --> 00:32:53.559
not necessarily emotionally honest. But that's
just me interesting hmm. Okay, we'll

380
00:32:53.599 --> 00:33:00.559
have to have that conversation emotional things
that feel emotionally honest and mapping things you

381
00:33:00.720 --> 00:33:07.799
are correct to things that are a
lot more emotionally recognizable Aspen. You sent

382
00:33:07.880 --> 00:33:12.960
me a Textbasters, and I've been
eager to dig into this because not only

383
00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:17.559
are these pieces deconstructions of the formative
pieces that they are based on, but

384
00:33:17.880 --> 00:33:24.599
also another reason that I wanted to
pair these two things together, along with

385
00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:32.440
being far and away considered the best
pieces of these franchises by Rubes like Ryan,

386
00:33:35.720 --> 00:33:37.799
I know what I'll take it.
I'm totally fine with it. By

387
00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:40.559
the way, for people that are
just listening to it, Ryan has a

388
00:33:40.599 --> 00:33:49.559
big honkin dunce cap so weird.
I actually do have on a shirt that

389
00:33:49.640 --> 00:33:53.640
says cotton Head and Nie Muggins right
now, So there you go. But

390
00:33:54.279 --> 00:33:59.559
Aspen you texted me, and I
also just wanted to talk about this because

391
00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:02.960
in our first episode of Empire,
where we cover Empire versus where no man

392
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:07.639
has gone before, we did not
cover the fact. And we can talk

393
00:34:07.639 --> 00:34:13.360
about this in Juxtpie with Wrath of
Khan. Both of these films, the

394
00:34:13.440 --> 00:34:16.639
people that are in charge of them, that are driving them creatively, are

395
00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:22.920
not the creators. They are not
the people in the chart. They are

396
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:29.320
people who, in Empire's case,
create a control was delegated, or in

397
00:34:29.400 --> 00:34:32.280
Wrath of CON's case, the creator
was pushed out of the room, literally

398
00:34:32.360 --> 00:34:37.920
pushed out of the room. Was
executive wasn't even executive producer on it was

399
00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:43.400
like an executive consultant, yes,
which ultimately means that like they sent him

400
00:34:43.400 --> 00:34:46.599
a script, well, he gave
some notes and then they just didn't them.

401
00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:51.079
They did take some of them.
He did give a note about things

402
00:34:51.159 --> 00:34:55.719
being too militaristic, and they dropped
things like salutes and because of him,

403
00:34:55.840 --> 00:35:00.920
because he for what it's worth,
there were some like there were pieces that

404
00:35:00.039 --> 00:35:06.760
while he you know, has his
own opinions on things like he's looking toward

405
00:35:06.840 --> 00:35:09.519
that optimistic future, and he's saying, like, if we portray it as

406
00:35:09.559 --> 00:35:15.400
a militaristic organization, like it's not
like truly so like I mean beyond what

407
00:35:15.639 --> 00:35:17.400
has been done already, like we've
talked about in so many episodes, but

408
00:35:17.599 --> 00:35:24.800
this one codifies it. Yeah,
bring brings the military stuff to the four

409
00:35:25.400 --> 00:35:30.400
so much. And also Roden Berry
and the TV show is very much cherry

410
00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:36.840
picking how much of a military is
true because the thing is a paradox word

411
00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:43.280
is both anti authoritarian. Yeah,
and also there's a rank structure that is

412
00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:49.920
so rigidly followed unless it doesn't fit. I constantly complain about it, and

413
00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:53.400
they intentionally set it up as a
conflict. I mean, this movie was

414
00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:59.599
about a conflict between the military and
a civilian you know. True, but

415
00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:05.320
but it was but interestingly it but
it was a false conflict. It wasn't

416
00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:08.079
you know, it wasn't like like
at the end, David says, you

417
00:36:08.159 --> 00:36:12.440
know I was wrong about you,
you know, and it's a beautiful moment

418
00:36:12.920 --> 00:36:17.280
about your dad speaking dads. Yeah, so oh yeah, surprise, Dad

419
00:36:17.800 --> 00:36:22.039
won't even get me started surprised,
and I realized I got off of Kenny's

420
00:36:22.400 --> 00:36:25.000
a little kind of topic a little
bit, but yeah, it is in

421
00:36:25.119 --> 00:36:30.599
the sense that really truly, all
Geene Roddenberry had was the fact that he

422
00:36:30.679 --> 00:36:35.480
could give some notes and they could
take them if they wanted. And because

423
00:36:35.800 --> 00:36:42.840
the motion picture was forty four million
dollars financially, it did okay, but

424
00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:50.039
to that point it was the most
expensive film that had ever been so in

425
00:36:50.239 --> 00:36:52.960
order for Paramount to justify its success, it needed to be a colossal hit,

426
00:36:53.320 --> 00:36:57.719
and it was just a hit.
But they wanted to do something Star

427
00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:02.480
Trek related, and so they were
like, thanks, goodbye. And then

428
00:37:02.559 --> 00:37:10.119
they brought in TV producer Harve Bennett, who was like, for the price

429
00:37:10.159 --> 00:37:15.280
of the motion picture, I could
have made five Star Trek movies. It

430
00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:22.039
goes to watch every single Star Trek
episode is just like, what makes us

431
00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:30.559
think tick? The answer is the
triumphrate and con and then brings on Nicholas

432
00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:34.679
Meyer, who was like, oh, this is Horatio Hornblower in space and

433
00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:40.440
is able to recognize all the influences
that rodden Berry had while also bringing in

434
00:37:40.559 --> 00:37:47.199
their own history and are able to
distill it into a two hour piece that

435
00:37:47.519 --> 00:37:57.440
feels like what the populace at that
point felt like Star Trek was this intangible

436
00:37:57.519 --> 00:38:04.360
thing what Star Trek. Yes,
and it also took Star Trek, like

437
00:38:04.440 --> 00:38:07.800
you said before, it took Star
Trek to a whole nother level. It

438
00:38:07.960 --> 00:38:12.599
deconstructed it. It showed that,
I mean, Kirk has a son,

439
00:38:13.199 --> 00:38:19.119
Spock dies. It's like, you
know, even even Chekhov, like you

440
00:38:19.199 --> 00:38:22.400
know, isn't he Chekhov his first
office around a new ship. It's like

441
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:27.480
they all these all these things.
It took it to a completely new new

442
00:38:27.559 --> 00:38:30.519
level. It does feel very much
like Star Trek in a really great way.

443
00:38:30.119 --> 00:38:34.519
And then it also is like a
whole nother thing, which is exactly

444
00:38:34.599 --> 00:38:37.159
the way Empire, well, very
similar to the way Empire feels towards Star

445
00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:42.480
Wars. So the weirdest thing is
that the like what this is closest to

446
00:38:42.800 --> 00:38:51.679
is stuff like pardon the comparison,
but like returned to Gilligan's Island, I

447
00:38:51.840 --> 00:38:58.159
cannot pardon that com That's okay,
okay, sounds great to me. There

448
00:38:58.280 --> 00:39:00.960
is no reason that Star Trek two
should have exists the way that it does

449
00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:06.639
because it's a TV It's a campy
TV show, like styrofoam sets and actors

450
00:39:06.679 --> 00:39:10.199
that were kind of type cast as
they were, and then like the closest

451
00:39:12.480 --> 00:39:17.400
analogy to something like that happening to
that point, it was like TV movies

452
00:39:17.679 --> 00:39:22.000
where they get the cast back together
and things are different, but they're trying

453
00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:24.880
to recapture the old magic. Compare
that to this. Okay, Okay,

454
00:39:25.039 --> 00:39:29.360
now I get it all right,
welcome. I mean this is a far

455
00:39:29.480 --> 00:39:35.760
more literate, articulate, emotionally impactful
version. I think I watched Return to

456
00:39:35.800 --> 00:39:38.559
Gilligan's Island, but anyway, I
mean, honestly, who didn't. Yeah,

457
00:39:39.519 --> 00:39:49.280
Losers, Losers Island. Whatever,
it's great, not important. The

458
00:39:49.360 --> 00:39:53.159
point is is that we got something
that, quite honestly, is probably better

459
00:39:53.199 --> 00:40:00.400
than we deserved by having something that
is looking at the archetype of something that

460
00:40:00.559 --> 00:40:07.039
is referenced frequently and making up materials
is Sherlock Holmes and who is Sherlock Holmes

461
00:40:07.119 --> 00:40:10.920
without a mystery? So too is
this story looking at James Kirk being like

462
00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:16.920
who is Janes Kirk without a space
Adventurer? And then they dare, yeah,

463
00:40:17.440 --> 00:40:22.239
they dare to age the characters,
they dare to change the status quo.

464
00:40:23.599 --> 00:40:30.440
Do you think this is a measure
of not being so precious about Okay,

465
00:40:30.559 --> 00:40:36.400
Yeah, it's like Jane Roddenberry is
precious about his characters, his stories.

466
00:40:36.840 --> 00:40:39.119
George Lucas precious, could be very
precious. I mean at the time,

467
00:40:39.119 --> 00:40:42.840
I'm sure was just as much precious
about his character, his stories and

468
00:40:42.920 --> 00:40:46.440
what does it mean to come in
and respect that and then as been we'll

469
00:40:46.519 --> 00:40:51.719
remembering George Lucas well, That's what
I was. You pair this with the

470
00:40:51.800 --> 00:40:55.840
fact that Lucas was kind of involved
with the Holiday special but not really.

471
00:40:57.400 --> 00:41:00.920
Yeah, and then exactly where you're
getting to ask, but the fact that

472
00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:04.400
Lucas was kind of like, I
care about Star Wars, but I care

473
00:41:04.400 --> 00:41:07.920
about this other stuff more. Yeah, Lucas and Runberry both seem to me

474
00:41:08.159 --> 00:41:15.840
to be like, and this is
true of almost everyone. They need a

475
00:41:15.920 --> 00:41:19.559
team. They're so much better with
a team, and like, on their

476
00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:22.800
own, they'll screw it up the
like I mean, you know, Star

477
00:41:22.880 --> 00:41:28.199
Wars was saved in the edit.
Everybody knows that now, and it's like

478
00:41:29.400 --> 00:41:34.639
they so it's almost like this huge
and it's not saying anything bad about them

479
00:41:34.719 --> 00:41:37.639
at all. They're these amazing visionary
creators, but it's kind of like a

480
00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:45.679
CEO or something or terrible analogy,
but they need everybody around them to to

481
00:41:45.199 --> 00:41:50.079
to They're only one piece of it, you know. I think that's a

482
00:41:50.320 --> 00:41:53.840
really good analogy. Actually, Like
Kenny and I were just talking CEOs well,

483
00:41:53.880 --> 00:41:59.199
I mean, and you should well, Kenny and I were just talking

484
00:41:59.199 --> 00:42:02.280
about it. He was asked me
like, how do I feel about uh,

485
00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:08.079
oh my god, help Kenny?
Why is he? Why is star

486
00:42:08.320 --> 00:42:14.400
Trek? He was about Star Wars? Uh sorry, Clone Wars creator,

487
00:42:14.760 --> 00:42:20.360
a SAC creator? Why the world? Yeah? Sorry, say it again,

488
00:42:20.599 --> 00:42:23.519
the chief creative officer for Star Wars. Yeah. And I was saying,

489
00:42:23.960 --> 00:42:25.519
you know, I think there's plenty
of stuff we can say. But

490
00:42:25.599 --> 00:42:30.119
what I started thinking about was the
fact that, you know, we look

491
00:42:30.199 --> 00:42:32.400
at a lot of art and we
just see, okay, those creators.

492
00:42:32.440 --> 00:42:37.559
We think about tours, We think
about people who are like directorals and the

493
00:42:37.599 --> 00:42:40.519
actors and stuff, but things are
a lot more like the way an organization

494
00:42:40.719 --> 00:42:45.239
runs, right, Absolutely, And
so I'm actually pretty pros s Dave Filoni.

495
00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:49.000
Things. I'm like, listen,
you also go for people who are

496
00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:52.480
easy to work with, who will
listen to other people's ideas and maybe shift

497
00:42:52.519 --> 00:42:55.119
and use lots of things. Right, So I actually do think thinking about

498
00:42:55.119 --> 00:43:00.239
the way that these things are made
more in the way of like a CEO

499
00:43:00.480 --> 00:43:04.239
and managers and stuff is actually really
helpful to understand it better, you know

500
00:43:04.360 --> 00:43:07.800
what has So I'll sit and watch
movies with my five year old. We've

501
00:43:07.840 --> 00:43:14.639
watched a lot of Studio Ghiblie of
course, because that stuff is amazing and

502
00:43:14.760 --> 00:43:17.360
so and so we sit and watch
that. And Dylan, five years old,

503
00:43:17.920 --> 00:43:22.400
loves to watch credits. I don't
know exactly why. He can't read,

504
00:43:23.239 --> 00:43:27.960
but he sits and watches credits and
he asks me to read names and

505
00:43:28.079 --> 00:43:35.519
I'll read Japanese names, which is
hilarious. And he and I told him,

506
00:43:35.639 --> 00:43:37.840
like, these are all the people
that worked on the movie. And

507
00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:45.719
there's hundreds, thousands of people.
It's not it's a huge undertaking, and

508
00:43:45.800 --> 00:43:51.039
it's a I mean, it's so
collaborative. It's amazing that it even comes

509
00:43:51.079 --> 00:43:54.760
off as well as it does.
It's and just seeing him, you know,

510
00:43:54.920 --> 00:43:59.719
teaching someone who knows nothing about this
kind of stuff that it's taught me

511
00:44:00.119 --> 00:44:04.199
like, oh, yeah, there's
thousands of people working on these They're huge

512
00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:08.559
organizations. They're they're companies that you
know, last for five ten years to

513
00:44:08.599 --> 00:44:14.960
make a single film. Yeah.
Anyway, yeah, well, no,

514
00:44:15.199 --> 00:44:22.239
I do. This is a fascinating
comparison because we talked about Phantom Menace versus

515
00:44:22.599 --> 00:44:28.039
Motion Picture, right, and I
think that is a true example of the

516
00:44:28.159 --> 00:44:31.280
two creators coming back and trying to
kind of reclaim this thing up theirs.

517
00:44:31.719 --> 00:44:36.840
And this is sort of this is
different. This is Jane being pushed out,

518
00:44:36.880 --> 00:44:40.039
and this is Lucas being like,
yes, you know, these are

519
00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:50.440
too well made, excellently made pieces
of IP management. Yeah they are,

520
00:44:50.559 --> 00:44:55.880
and they're I think they're the best
and most thoughtful pieces of IP management in

521
00:44:57.000 --> 00:45:04.360
each franchise. I mean. And
because they had someone that cared about storytelling

522
00:45:04.960 --> 00:45:08.360
from the outside. Yeah, because
it's really easy to try and make an

523
00:45:08.440 --> 00:45:13.719
argument of well they brought someone from
the outside, that's not it necessarily.

524
00:45:13.960 --> 00:45:16.360
Oh, sometimes an outsider is exactly
what you need, almost definitely. But

525
00:45:17.159 --> 00:45:23.000
whenever it's an outsider that is also
given the room to tell a story that

526
00:45:23.119 --> 00:45:28.039
they care about using the toys that
you like, then you were able to

527
00:45:28.079 --> 00:45:35.039
get you were able to synthesize something
new and meaningful. Hey that'spen mark the

528
00:45:35.159 --> 00:45:40.079
time. Uh, I want more
time with you guys, and we have

529
00:45:40.239 --> 00:45:45.559
thirteen minutes, I know, can
we like maybe continue this another time,

530
00:45:46.639 --> 00:45:51.159
Like, it's just just something to
think about. Yeah, I think so

531
00:45:52.119 --> 00:45:58.199
I've barely touched. I know you've
barely touched. It's hard when there are

532
00:45:58.280 --> 00:46:01.519
three people or more than two people. I found it typically has gone way

533
00:46:01.719 --> 00:46:05.239
like like at least up to two
hours or at least an hour and a

534
00:46:05.280 --> 00:46:12.079
half. So I would be okay
with that anyway. Yeah, just something

535
00:46:12.119 --> 00:46:15.440
to think about. Yeah, yeah, well, let's let's make the most

536
00:46:15.480 --> 00:46:19.519
of our time until nine o'clock and
then we can continue the discussion and then

537
00:46:19.559 --> 00:46:22.519
we'll discuss. Right, you have
to go do improv and then we'll deal

538
00:46:22.559 --> 00:46:29.280
with that later. Okay, can
I can I call back? I don't

539
00:46:29.320 --> 00:46:31.920
want to get off this if you're
not done with this, Kenny, I

540
00:46:32.039 --> 00:46:42.800
just want to I'm so fascinated by
both properties being these stories that are telling

541
00:46:42.960 --> 00:46:49.199
us that our heroes maybe aren't perfect, that our stories are hard, that

542
00:46:49.440 --> 00:46:51.800
maybe they don't always turn out great. And of course the right kind of

543
00:46:51.880 --> 00:46:55.119
does turn out pretty well at least
I'll a hero. But but Spock dies,

544
00:46:55.400 --> 00:47:01.880
and yeah, that's rough. I
mean, it's the two archetypes looking

545
00:47:01.960 --> 00:47:08.599
out on a blossoming galaxy or a
blossoming planet looking at the possibilities that are

546
00:47:08.840 --> 00:47:15.960
available towards them, and Kirk's final
line of young, I feel young because

547
00:47:15.039 --> 00:47:20.159
this sensation of loss is new to
him, the way that this loss,

548
00:47:20.800 --> 00:47:23.599
yeah is And not only that,
but both of them put both stories.

549
00:47:25.480 --> 00:47:31.159
Where Wrath of Coon is a deconstruction
of the Horatio Hornblower Charlotte Holmes, at

550
00:47:31.239 --> 00:47:40.159
least within the contributions with Nicholas Meyer, deconstruction of that archetype, so too

551
00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:44.880
is Empire Strikes Back, and we
touched upon this on our first Empire episode,

552
00:47:45.159 --> 00:47:54.320
but deconstruction of the Joseph Campbell mono
myth type hero and also, from

553
00:47:54.360 --> 00:48:04.280
what I understand writer Lawrence Kasdan,
a thing to bring in more Eastern philosophy,

554
00:48:04.320 --> 00:48:14.800
specifically Buddhism, within building out what
Jedi and the Force mean to it,

555
00:48:15.039 --> 00:48:21.159
and from a Western perspective, because
Ryan, perhaps you could talk a

556
00:48:21.199 --> 00:48:24.360
little bit more about this, but
this this as an actual Buddhist, as

557
00:48:24.400 --> 00:48:31.280
an actual Buddhist, this notion of
trying to certainly no more than certainly no

558
00:48:31.360 --> 00:48:39.880
more than me. But like Aspen
talked about in the first episode, it's

559
00:48:40.039 --> 00:48:43.519
really difficult to be like, you
have to let go of emotion, you

560
00:48:43.599 --> 00:48:49.000
have to let go of all of
these things. Oh, I am literally

561
00:48:49.079 --> 00:48:51.719
even I've watched Empires so many times. Every single time, I'm like,

562
00:48:51.880 --> 00:48:55.639
this is fucking stupid, this is
wrong. It is still because you're a

563
00:48:55.840 --> 00:49:00.559
that's because you're a trained therapist and
what I mean, that's part of it,

564
00:49:00.760 --> 00:49:05.760
but just because yeah, it's it's
an it's a stupid, inhuman thing

565
00:49:05.840 --> 00:49:10.960
to ask people to do. And
that's interesting being called an actual Buddhist.

566
00:49:10.960 --> 00:49:15.400
I haven't meditated in so long.
You guys am like embarrassed. But anyway,

567
00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:17.639
well you do have two children,
thank you. I appreciate that.

568
00:49:19.400 --> 00:49:22.280
It's that is such a great all
purpose excuse, by the way, But

569
00:49:24.800 --> 00:49:30.880
uh so seeing this when I was
twelve years old, seeing Empire when I

570
00:49:30.920 --> 00:49:36.400
was twelve years old, when you
were twelve Empire, yes, I did

571
00:49:36.440 --> 00:49:45.079
interesting and the so as the I
am your father was mind blowing. The

572
00:49:45.199 --> 00:49:51.840
cave scene was incomprehensible right and terrifying, to be fair, it is a

573
00:49:51.960 --> 00:50:01.639
very dark scene, very physically goddamn. But but the whole it's like,

574
00:50:01.800 --> 00:50:06.559
even now I think about all the
possible things that that scene could mean,

575
00:50:06.960 --> 00:50:08.480
you know, I mean, it's
like there's all kinds of different and of

576
00:50:08.559 --> 00:50:10.320
course as a you know, a
twelve year old, I'm like, what

577
00:50:10.400 --> 00:50:14.840
does it mean? Because it's got
to mean one thing because it's a binary,

578
00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:20.119
but you know, and it means
all kinds of things. But the

579
00:50:22.519 --> 00:50:28.159
so Buddhism, you know what,
It doesn't take me to Buddhism so much,

580
00:50:28.239 --> 00:50:31.639
although I do, I have really
appreciated Aspen you representing the whole side

581
00:50:31.719 --> 00:50:37.400
of like as a human being,
you can't let go of emotions. That's

582
00:50:37.559 --> 00:50:40.440
it makes you inhuman, which,
by the way, I don't know if

583
00:50:40.480 --> 00:50:44.320
you're aware of this, but that's
a big theme of Star Trek as well,

584
00:50:45.639 --> 00:50:50.960
the uh, the uh and in
fact, God, this brings up

585
00:50:51.000 --> 00:50:52.119
so much for me. My brain
is going all over the place. But

586
00:50:53.639 --> 00:50:58.199
the one I'm gonna go back to
Star Trek the motion picture for that,

587
00:50:58.280 --> 00:51:01.280
I apologize, Yeah, I don't
know, but we're going back to the

588
00:51:01.320 --> 00:51:07.679
motion picture. You can't you can't
reference It's not like I've literally referenced everything

589
00:51:07.719 --> 00:51:15.039
else. Besides so the scene where
Spock goes you know, times his space

590
00:51:15.079 --> 00:51:22.320
suit and everything and goes into Nigure
right and in my and this was the

591
00:51:22.360 --> 00:51:25.840
scene that I remember my father's reaction
to the best and we spoke about it

592
00:51:25.920 --> 00:51:32.880
afterwards, and his reaction to it
was that Spock determined that this thing Vegre

593
00:51:34.119 --> 00:51:38.800
had no emotion, that it was
like perfectly logical, and it was and

594
00:51:39.239 --> 00:51:46.880
that was bad. Like, so
Spock was questioning his whole philosophy, right,

595
00:51:46.960 --> 00:51:52.920
That was my father's interpretation of it. Uh and uh, which I

596
00:51:54.280 --> 00:52:00.360
h I wanted. I haven't watched
the motion mixture and along time, I'd

597
00:52:00.400 --> 00:52:02.639
like to go back and see because
because fuck's like laughing after he comes out

598
00:52:02.639 --> 00:52:10.199
of Vegure, if I remember correctly, he's like what he's he's smiling and

599
00:52:10.280 --> 00:52:15.920
he's going I should have known.
Yeah, he's crying. Yeah, he's

600
00:52:16.039 --> 00:52:22.360
feeling, and he grabs he grabs
Kirk's hands and he's he goes this this

601
00:52:22.599 --> 00:52:29.480
simple feeling. It's beyond Veature's comprehension
exactly. And so my dad, well,

602
00:52:29.519 --> 00:52:36.320
my dad interpreted that as you know, things without emotion. I think

603
00:52:36.400 --> 00:52:39.440
the youth word he used is worthless. You know that it's not you know,

604
00:52:39.559 --> 00:52:45.360
and so, which is a very
like God, I could go on,

605
00:52:45.840 --> 00:52:50.039
we don't want to get into me
and my dad, but very valuated.

606
00:52:51.719 --> 00:52:59.239
But yeah, too much so that
that relate to me, relates to

607
00:52:59.400 --> 00:53:07.119
the Jedi and how like you are, and also to Buddhism in that you

608
00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:13.800
can't if you detach yourself. There's
a wise way to detach yourself, and

609
00:53:13.840 --> 00:53:16.559
there's an unwise way to detach yourself. That that is what. That is

610
00:53:16.679 --> 00:53:21.719
what my favorite Buddhist teachers would say. That's what tik not Han would say,

611
00:53:21.840 --> 00:53:24.519
who is like his whole thing was
engaged Buddhism. You know, you

612
00:53:24.679 --> 00:53:30.119
don't if you detach yourself too much, you've lost your humanity, you've lost

613
00:53:30.119 --> 00:53:32.639
your connection. And Star Wars is
all about that. Like Darth Vader,

614
00:53:34.039 --> 00:53:37.679
I mean he's literally lost his humanity. He's made of mechanical parts now.

615
00:53:37.159 --> 00:53:40.760
And Luke loses his humanity a little
bit because he loses his hand and it

616
00:53:40.800 --> 00:53:45.360
becomes because that's the last scene in
Empire is where you see his mechanical hand

617
00:53:45.440 --> 00:53:50.400
right, which takes me to Tolkien. And like in Token, the symbol

618
00:53:50.679 --> 00:53:59.920
of everybody having to pay a price
is losing losing an appending some time.

619
00:54:00.679 --> 00:54:05.960
No far I took it too far. In our very first episode of this

620
00:54:06.039 --> 00:54:13.480
podcast, I accidentally said Peter Jackson
instead of George Luke very similar. That's

621
00:54:13.519 --> 00:54:16.519
it, but you could also I
mean yeah, yeah, I can pull

622
00:54:16.559 --> 00:54:20.000
in Harry Potter or two if you
want, but we don't have to.

623
00:54:20.480 --> 00:54:29.440
I I I this. Yeah.
I complain about this constantly because I think

624
00:54:29.480 --> 00:54:35.559
it is a bastardization of an idea
of of Buddhism and Eastern philosophy, of

625
00:54:35.639 --> 00:54:40.039
the idea that Buddhists are completely detached
from their feelings is false, That is

626
00:54:40.199 --> 00:54:45.840
not that is an unwise way to
be detached, And any good Buddhist teacher

627
00:54:45.880 --> 00:54:49.119
will tell you. I mean,
I wonder if these notions that were being

628
00:54:49.559 --> 00:54:55.599
weaved through Empire were far more subversive
at the time versus now forty yeah on,

629
00:54:57.400 --> 00:55:01.840
oh yeah, definitely. Well,
I'm no, I'm forty three years

630
00:55:01.880 --> 00:55:07.320
on where it is just now baked
into the text, and so we are

631
00:55:07.480 --> 00:55:10.920
able to project whatever, don't you
dare say, forty three years on?

632
00:55:12.159 --> 00:55:16.159
Forty three years years? I mean, you're certainly right, Kenny, and

633
00:55:16.199 --> 00:55:19.880
I think a lot of times what
we are talking about is what was this

634
00:55:20.079 --> 00:55:22.079
like in the context of it when
it came out? How was it?

635
00:55:22.519 --> 00:55:25.280
I'm sure it was. I mean
again, you were you were there,

636
00:55:27.400 --> 00:55:32.440
Reagan was president. Reagan was president. That makes it. No, he

637
00:55:32.599 --> 00:55:37.760
wasn't president yet. Oh it was
eighty one. Eighty one. Oh oh,

638
00:55:37.840 --> 00:55:42.679
this came out in eighty President took
office in eighty one. Okay,

639
00:55:42.880 --> 00:55:46.760
no wonder the military stuff would have
been foregrounded so much in Ratha, and

640
00:55:46.920 --> 00:55:54.480
no wonder that the notions of trying
to uh have a victory for the collective

641
00:55:54.559 --> 00:55:59.719
versus the personal victory, which is
what Luke is fighting for or fighting,

642
00:56:00.119 --> 00:56:04.519
not fighting for but fighting against.
Star Wars is a catharsis a personal victory

643
00:56:04.559 --> 00:56:08.920
that has happens to be tied into
Luke's desires for personal growth and that happens

644
00:56:08.960 --> 00:56:13.440
to just tie in with collective growth. I just don't agree with that,

645
00:56:13.599 --> 00:56:17.360
though, I genuinely do think that
Star Wars is about collective acts. I

646
00:56:17.400 --> 00:56:22.119
think you're correct. I think that's
what it becomes. Absolutely Yeah. Here's

647
00:56:22.280 --> 00:56:28.039
here's one of my big gripes with
Star Wars and why stop it, stop

648
00:56:28.159 --> 00:56:37.159
it? I love You're gonna get
your bone sucked out? And why I

649
00:56:37.480 --> 00:56:42.159
love a film that I can't remember
the name of at this at this very

650
00:56:42.199 --> 00:56:47.000
moment because I'm very I forgot dave
name Star Wars. Star Wars. Uh.

651
00:56:47.840 --> 00:56:52.519
My second favorite Star Wars Rogue one. It's Rogue Thangue one. Thank

652
00:56:52.559 --> 00:56:55.440
you. Yeah, I know you
don't like Rogue one, Kenny, but

653
00:56:55.519 --> 00:57:02.719
you're wrong. So the the reason
why I love Rogue one, and one

654
00:57:02.760 --> 00:57:09.840
of my big gripes about Star Wars
is that it it so many people die

655
00:57:10.079 --> 00:57:14.360
in the wars that happen in Star
Wars. So many people suffer, and

656
00:57:14.639 --> 00:57:20.800
all of the focus is on these
few people, right, these few heroes

657
00:57:21.000 --> 00:57:23.039
who happen to have the Force or
something like that, you know, or

658
00:57:23.079 --> 00:57:27.840
whatever, and all these other people
who die are ignored. And that's why

659
00:57:28.000 --> 00:57:32.119
Rogue one is so awesome is because
it shows the people who die so that

660
00:57:32.239 --> 00:57:39.559
those other people can be heroes.
It's amazing, the whole thing, through

661
00:57:39.639 --> 00:57:45.000
and through every bit of it.
I agree with Kenny, But what you're

662
00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:47.519
talking about is an idea, right, is exactly right? Thank you.

663
00:57:47.760 --> 00:57:52.079
I knew, I knew you.
I knew, but I don't like rog

664
00:57:52.519 --> 00:57:55.360
Okay, well, we're gonna we're
all gonna, we're all gonna continue this

665
00:57:55.480 --> 00:58:00.559
later. I remember where we stopped
with was me starting to get into the

666
00:58:00.639 --> 00:58:06.440
background of urban Kirshner. Okay,
yeah, why didn't you give us a

667
00:58:06.440 --> 00:58:08.719
little Irvan Kurshner, give us like
like a touch of the touch, like

668
00:58:08.760 --> 00:58:16.920
give us a little bit of a
curseh. Just a CURSEH. So like

669
00:58:17.039 --> 00:58:24.719
Nicholas Meyer coming in and like Harve
Bennett coming in, Lucas burned out and

670
00:58:24.760 --> 00:58:30.760
it's focused on the business acpect of
things. And so he goes to Urban

671
00:58:30.840 --> 00:58:36.880
Kirshner. I believe it was his
old professor from USC cute, and it's

672
00:58:36.960 --> 00:58:38.199
just like, do you want to
direct to Star Wars? Do you want

673
00:58:38.239 --> 00:58:44.480
to direct to Star Wars? Exactly
like that, and curse is just like

674
00:58:45.000 --> 00:58:49.760
me, you want me to direct
to Star Wars. I forgot that was

675
00:58:49.880 --> 00:58:57.679
his voice. He just talks like
that, This is right, that's right,

676
00:58:57.719 --> 00:58:59.880
that's right, because last time we
talked about this, kiddy, we

677
00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:01.519
were like, we should do a
show where it's like one of us is

678
00:59:01.559 --> 00:59:07.039
George, the others cursed. It's
me. I'm Urban Kirshner. You might

679
00:59:07.159 --> 00:59:13.679
have seen one of my films,
Empire Strikes Back, perhaps Never Say Never

680
00:59:13.880 --> 00:59:22.000
Again or Robo Cop too, a
little bit of the Yeah, yeah,

681
00:59:22.000 --> 00:59:30.280
that sounds I really appreciate your work
pretty great. Go uh so anyways,

682
00:59:30.360 --> 00:59:36.239
wait with the James Bond movie.
Yes, correct say Never Again? Fine?

683
00:59:36.280 --> 00:59:38.360
You know what I really want to
know how did the script get written?

684
00:59:39.760 --> 00:59:45.280
How did the script get written?
Uh? They Lucas writes out a

685
00:59:45.400 --> 00:59:50.639
story out and I'm pretty sure brings
in Lay Bracket, who is known for

686
00:59:50.760 --> 00:59:53.480
such films as The Long Goodbye,
The Big Sleep, and from what I

687
00:59:53.639 --> 00:59:59.199
understand, UH is also just a
writer of Western She's a classic Hollywood writer.

688
01:00:00.519 --> 01:00:05.280
Uh, and has brought in to
work on the first draft or two,

689
01:00:05.519 --> 01:00:09.800
and then she gets sick so she
cannot finish work on it. At

690
01:00:09.840 --> 01:00:15.119
the same time, Steven Spielberg and
George Lucas are working a Ragers of the

691
01:00:15.199 --> 01:00:20.360
Lost Ark, and I have their
other guy, Lawrence Kasdan, in the

692
01:00:20.400 --> 01:00:22.880
story conferences, which you can find
the transcripts for that was Kasden sound like

693
01:00:24.519 --> 01:00:31.119
Actually he kind of sounds like Ryan. That's not even a bit huh.

694
01:00:32.079 --> 01:00:37.280
Oh my god. This is their
new stage production Kirshner, Kasden, and

695
01:00:37.639 --> 01:00:44.880
Lucas. Everybody says, I sound
like Ron Howard, so it's uncanny.

696
01:00:45.519 --> 01:00:50.199
Actually he didn't. Okay, oh
I got it. Well, I was

697
01:00:50.199 --> 01:00:52.159
saying it like the rest, I
got it. I guess, Oh,

698
01:00:52.039 --> 01:00:55.199
actually he didn't. You do have
a Ron Howard vibe to you, kind

699
01:00:55.199 --> 01:00:59.199
of like, well, yeah,
I'm also a ginger like Ron Howard.

700
01:00:59.280 --> 01:01:06.320
In high school. My nickname was
rich Genningham Bice by the by some of

701
01:01:06.480 --> 01:01:10.920
my fellows. So there you go, fellows. It's cute. Yeah.

702
01:01:13.239 --> 01:01:15.760
Actually, if i'm if I'm completely
honest, the black guys from pe Glass

703
01:01:15.840 --> 01:01:22.119
they called me Richie Gunningham, So
there you go. Yeah, very directed,

704
01:01:23.760 --> 01:01:29.000
you know, it's right, Okay, it was, but it was

705
01:01:29.119 --> 01:01:32.800
nice. So that interludes allowed me
to do a little bit of research on

706
01:01:32.880 --> 01:01:37.320
Lawrence Kastan, who was a working
screenwriter and had written a script called Continental

707
01:01:37.360 --> 01:01:43.480
Divide, which is made by Ryan's
favorite actor or eventually gets translated into a

708
01:01:43.599 --> 01:01:47.880
movie Strying. Ryan's favorite actor John
Belushiu and Steven Spielberg likes that movie so

709
01:01:49.039 --> 01:01:52.079
much, rather likes the script so
much he brings Kasdan Inn to work on

710
01:01:52.199 --> 01:01:57.480
Rags to the Lost Arc with him
and Lucas, Right, and then from

711
01:01:57.920 --> 01:02:01.400
those story conferences are going so well, George Lucas says to Lawrence cast and

712
01:02:01.719 --> 01:02:06.079
asked them, what does he say, do you want to work on this

713
01:02:06.239 --> 01:02:10.960
movie? Yeah? Exactly, the
next the next Star Wars, the next

714
01:02:12.039 --> 01:02:17.480
pect Star Wars, Yes, the
next pick War of the Stars. And

715
01:02:17.639 --> 01:02:23.960
that's what happens. I mean,
Kastan writes a scription and then Irvin Kershner

716
01:02:25.920 --> 01:02:31.400
and all the actors are very much
just like he. They're talking around it,

717
01:02:31.480 --> 01:02:34.880
but they're like, this is a
better experience. They're working with George

718
01:02:34.920 --> 01:02:38.880
Lucas, because where on the first
movie Lucas is kind of cold and distant,

719
01:02:38.920 --> 01:02:43.719
and his direction was faster and more
intense, nothing really more articulate than

720
01:02:43.760 --> 01:02:49.199
that. Kersh that's what I call
him, and that's what they call him,

721
01:02:49.639 --> 01:02:54.920
works with the actors to build up
more naturalistic rhythms and you can see

722
01:02:55.000 --> 01:03:01.760
that, and it's obvious. So
I finished watching Empire today and I got

723
01:03:01.800 --> 01:03:07.559
it. I mean the moment when
Luke when Vader says he's his father and

724
01:03:08.000 --> 01:03:15.440
Luke's reaction, I mean, it's
really good. The way Mark Cammeil reacts

725
01:03:15.440 --> 01:03:20.400
as really good. For Mark Hamel's
it's really good. Oh, it's fabulous.

726
01:03:20.559 --> 01:03:23.119
I'm totally with you. There's a
lot of exchanges that, like,

727
01:03:23.360 --> 01:03:29.239
even like the Han solo stuff,
Like everything with Harrison Ford in this film

728
01:03:29.360 --> 01:03:34.199
is just exceptional. Oh my gosh. I totally forgot to mention that Carrie

729
01:03:34.239 --> 01:03:37.079
Fisher did an uncredited pass on all
of the dialogue of course she fucking did

730
01:03:37.519 --> 01:03:42.800
that is my mom right there.
She did what Cary Fisher did, an

731
01:03:42.840 --> 01:03:45.719
uncredited pass on all of the dialogue. Oh so she she had input on

732
01:03:45.800 --> 01:03:51.159
all the dialogue. Yeah, oh
that's awesome, which makes sense because uh

733
01:03:52.199 --> 01:03:55.039
yeah, she's a fabulous writer,
so good, a good puncher upper and

734
01:03:55.119 --> 01:03:58.880
that it says a lot. It's
like you can feel it. I was

735
01:03:59.320 --> 01:04:01.639
all of the Dieu. That was
another thing I noticed again on this billion

736
01:04:01.679 --> 01:04:06.800
three watches. I was like,
this is so naturalistic, so human,

737
01:04:08.760 --> 01:04:13.199
so funny. Oh god, so
yeah, it's very funny. It's very

738
01:04:13.239 --> 01:04:15.400
funny. And of several of the
things I noticed on this, one of

739
01:04:15.480 --> 01:04:20.920
them was holy shit, Haunt Solo
was a creep. That one that one

740
01:04:21.000 --> 01:04:24.920
I saw more clearly than I ever
had before, because you know, in

741
01:04:25.039 --> 01:04:30.440
like eighty whatever it was eighty eighty
two, eighty eight eighty when this came

742
01:04:30.480 --> 01:04:36.199
out, like you know, it
was all just like oh, especially because

743
01:04:36.199 --> 01:04:40.840
I was a twelve year old boy, but like it just wasn't like seeing

744
01:04:40.920 --> 01:04:46.880
it now is like so grating.
You're just like, dude, stop so

745
01:04:47.159 --> 01:04:53.880
annoying. Another thing I noticed was
the the funniness. But the another big

746
01:04:53.920 --> 01:05:00.519
thing was so many gigantic firsts in
this like first appearance of you, Hello

747
01:05:00.639 --> 01:05:03.719
Yoda, first appearance of Boba Fet, Hello Boba Fet not first appearance,

748
01:05:10.880 --> 01:05:28.880
yes, fuck, that doesn't count
first appearances. Absolutely, it's a really

749
01:05:29.239 --> 01:05:32.960
good cartoon. It's like one of
two things in the holiday special letter,

750
01:05:33.079 --> 01:05:36.480
Good well, Ryan, you're a
fan of heavy metal. What is great

751
01:05:36.559 --> 01:05:42.880
about the cartoon? I don't remember
that part, but I'm the story,

752
01:05:43.000 --> 01:05:46.920
the story of the Faithful Wookie is
that the designs are very much inspired by

753
01:05:46.920 --> 01:05:54.760
Immobius. It is a wild looking
cartoon. Cool. It's like, I'm

754
01:05:54.880 --> 01:06:00.440
so glad for you. Wow,
it's like pulling out that there but stuff

755
01:06:00.440 --> 01:06:12.079
again. He's just like that sounds
like something you love but with your mother.

756
01:06:13.360 --> 01:06:15.639
But like but like just you know, Boba Fett, slave one,

757
01:06:16.360 --> 01:06:21.239
Chasing Hant, like all this iconic
shit that. Oh and something I wrote

758
01:06:21.280 --> 01:06:29.360
in my I wrote in my notes
was the the hybrid drive on the Millennium

759
01:06:29.360 --> 01:06:35.239
Falcon not working never gets old is
a bit fault. They totally abuse it

760
01:06:35.360 --> 01:06:40.039
too, they use it so many
times. But I like that way.

761
01:06:40.039 --> 01:06:43.119
We went from being like we have
to be so specific about the cordinets because

762
01:06:43.159 --> 01:06:45.719
if we just like jump who knows
where we could end up, and now

763
01:06:45.760 --> 01:06:55.559
we're just like good to forget here. Another scene that was huge for kids

764
01:06:55.679 --> 01:07:01.679
at that time. You briefly see
the back of Vader's head right right without

765
01:07:01.719 --> 01:07:05.639
his helmet, right. Yes,
And at the time that was such a

766
01:07:05.679 --> 01:07:09.719
big deal because honestly, I'm a
little bit embarrassed. But like, we

767
01:07:09.800 --> 01:07:12.400
weren't even sure if he was like
a robot or not. We didn't know

768
01:07:12.480 --> 01:07:15.800
what he was. We didn't know
who he was. Why was this imposing?

769
01:07:15.920 --> 01:07:16.599
You know, we didn't know he
was anakin. We didn't know any

770
01:07:16.639 --> 01:07:23.719
of that shit. And so to
see exactly so to see that he was

771
01:07:23.800 --> 01:07:27.599
a human inside that suit, that's
the first time you realize that he's a

772
01:07:27.679 --> 01:07:32.639
human. So yeah, for sure, so good. It's like absolutely fabulous.

773
01:07:32.679 --> 01:07:38.119
And it's like you can see even
like the officer who sort of sneaks

774
01:07:38.159 --> 01:07:42.400
a glance and kind of is like
whoop, you know, like I've seen

775
01:07:42.440 --> 01:07:46.840
something I shouldn't have seen. I
think, Ryan, there might be a

776
01:07:46.920 --> 01:07:54.800
slight lag there is, okay,
but there I'm there's especially a video lag

777
01:07:54.920 --> 01:08:00.320
from you guys to me. But
but that was that wasn't fairly in But

778
01:08:00.400 --> 01:08:01.760
yeah, you guys are lagging a
little bit to me. But oh,

779
01:08:01.840 --> 01:08:05.800
and first appearance of Yoda. I
mean, I hope he wasn't in the

780
01:08:05.840 --> 01:08:13.199
Holiday special, but you know,
just amazing that the mind blowing like and

781
01:08:13.280 --> 01:08:16.600
when and you don't really I mean, I think I had heard beforehand from

782
01:08:16.680 --> 01:08:20.640
like my film savvy friends about what
Yoda was going to be like, but

783
01:08:20.840 --> 01:08:23.880
like, there were a lot of
people who went into that movie and they

784
01:08:23.920 --> 01:08:27.159
didn't think that the little green guy
was anybody until the big reveal came that

785
01:08:27.279 --> 01:08:31.760
he was actually Yoda, you know, So yeah, yeah, that's so

786
01:08:32.279 --> 01:08:38.359
like h because it's so funny because
having seen a Phantom Menace first before I

787
01:08:38.359 --> 01:08:42.600
saw the original three, right,
I knew right, and like I knew

788
01:08:42.640 --> 01:08:45.079
these things, and I knew about
Anakain and stuff. I just can't even

789
01:08:45.279 --> 01:08:48.000
obviously, there's so much that was
a joy like a first view, but

790
01:08:48.439 --> 01:08:54.479
I can't even imagine like that being
such a huge like these being just these

791
01:08:55.000 --> 01:09:01.920
wild moments. It's also so thematically
relevant because way are Star Wars. The

792
01:09:02.039 --> 01:09:08.600
motion picture is an affirmation of the
hero's journey. Even though it is indirectly

793
01:09:09.319 --> 01:09:14.399
lifting from Joseph Campbell not consciously,
it still fits into that mold and then

794
01:09:14.439 --> 01:09:21.039
Empire strikes back. Is okay,
you were the hero, but now everything

795
01:09:21.159 --> 01:09:29.239
is some sort of subversion of how
yeah, if you are truly serious about

796
01:09:29.279 --> 01:09:32.720
wanting to be on the selfless path, if you are wanting actual strength,

797
01:09:34.039 --> 01:09:40.479
here's what it looks like. Case
in point, Yoda's size is relevant to

798
01:09:40.600 --> 01:09:46.840
the themes that Empire is talking about, which is that's great, that's fabulous.

799
01:09:51.119 --> 01:09:56.720
So I actually while I was watching, I was feeling mad for you,

800
01:09:57.000 --> 01:10:01.000
Aspen for the same because the same
happening to Luke here that happened to

801
01:10:01.079 --> 01:10:05.600
Anakin in the prequels, the same
thing. Like, it's a totally reasonable

802
01:10:05.840 --> 01:10:10.800
human thing for him to want to
do, to go off to save his

803
01:10:10.920 --> 01:10:15.239
friends who are being tortured for the
purpose of bringing him there, and and

804
01:10:16.439 --> 01:10:20.680
basically Ben and Yoda ask him to
sacrifice them. They basically are like,

805
01:10:21.000 --> 01:10:24.439
you know, if they die,
they died, this is more important,

806
01:10:24.479 --> 01:10:28.199
And he's like, fuck that.
And it's a very strong argument that he

807
01:10:28.359 --> 01:10:30.239
made the right choice, you know, And even if you look at how

808
01:10:30.279 --> 01:10:34.840
the story plays out, he still
probably made the right choice. Like he

809
01:10:35.000 --> 01:10:39.119
goes and he takes care of his
friends who are in trouble. You know,

810
01:10:39.399 --> 01:10:45.840
like they're asking for a level of
detachment that I think is like inhuman

811
01:10:45.119 --> 01:10:50.119
you know. And that theme,
that theme about the perfect that theme exists

812
01:10:50.279 --> 01:10:57.119
as far back as Arthurian legends.
The same thing happens in the Nights at

813
01:10:57.119 --> 01:10:59.840
a round table, the perfect Nights. I can't remember who the perfect Night

814
01:10:59.920 --> 01:11:03.560
is, but the Perfect Nights are
so perfect that they're not human anymore.

815
01:11:03.960 --> 01:11:10.279
They they'll make they'll make the right
choice, but it seems incredibly cold and

816
01:11:10.399 --> 01:11:15.319
distant because it's pure morality and there's
no there's no humanity in it. I

817
01:11:15.399 --> 01:11:20.800
mean, you take that's textually what
this movie is talking about, just as

818
01:11:20.840 --> 01:11:29.079
Star Wars two, and it would
be it would also be interesting because it

819
01:11:29.159 --> 01:11:32.720
does eventually end up being the right
decision. And also, like we talked

820
01:11:32.720 --> 01:11:39.119
about in a Return of the Jedi
episode, uh almost a year more than

821
01:11:39.119 --> 01:11:43.439
a year ago. Actually, uh, that movie is of course, correction,

822
01:11:43.560 --> 01:11:48.560
because this movie went over like a
pile of cold rocks a little bit.

823
01:11:48.840 --> 01:11:51.239
Ah, yes, a pile of
cold rocks a very classic, very

824
01:11:51.279 --> 01:11:59.600
classic phrase. Uh yeah, well
okay, oh sure, this is again

825
01:11:59.640 --> 01:12:03.880
a Dans saying sorry, I'm interested
in a couple of things here. Sorry,

826
01:12:03.920 --> 01:12:11.279
that's why I short circuit it.
One is the uh, I feel

827
01:12:11.319 --> 01:12:13.800
like I don't want to I don't
want to get too much into Like I

828
01:12:13.880 --> 01:12:16.760
know, I already started this by
giving comparisons to last Jedi, but a

829
01:12:16.840 --> 01:12:23.000
strong comparison here happens for me where
it? And again we should just do

830
01:12:23.079 --> 01:12:29.399
a total episode on that comparison.
But it's very hard to watch your heroes

831
01:12:29.840 --> 01:12:35.039
make mistakes, yes, and I
don't. I love watching heroes make mistakes

832
01:12:35.279 --> 01:12:40.520
me because because then I can relate
to them. Yes, then they're a

833
01:12:40.640 --> 01:12:45.840
fucking human being, exactly and exactly, and I'm not a hero. It's

834
01:12:45.880 --> 01:12:49.800
why I don't like Superman because he
never Okay, that's that's a whole nother

835
01:12:49.920 --> 01:12:53.479
thing. I don't want to get
into it. I don't want to like

836
01:12:53.560 --> 01:12:59.000
it my favorite. But it's like, there's these heroes that are so heroic

837
01:12:59.239 --> 01:13:01.920
that they're not I can't relate to
them. It's why I shipped marvel In

838
01:13:02.000 --> 01:13:08.159
not DC. But anyway, can
I choose DC not Marvel? And but

839
01:13:08.239 --> 01:13:11.760
you're wrong, so you know,
except for you know, the Snyder verse

840
01:13:12.039 --> 01:13:17.000
for you, No, I it's
very much like and I don't even think

841
01:13:17.560 --> 01:13:20.880
that Luke leaving is a mistake,
because I've said this plenty of times that

842
01:13:21.319 --> 01:13:27.800
this is a failed pedagogy. Uh, Yoda's a terrible teacher, and this

843
01:13:28.000 --> 01:13:32.319
is not how we do this,
Like you're getting excuse me. My driver's

844
01:13:32.359 --> 01:13:35.800
ad teacher taught me the exact same
way. I gotten a little backpack while

845
01:13:35.840 --> 01:13:43.119
I was driving a jeep around high
school. He told me to close my

846
01:13:43.239 --> 01:13:48.960
eyes and feel, don't think,
and so I eventually I'm but Aspen,

847
01:13:49.079 --> 01:13:55.039
Here's the thing. Though they did
let him go, they like they warned

848
01:13:55.119 --> 01:13:58.600
him against it, but they also
kind of knew he was going to do

849
01:13:58.720 --> 01:14:02.880
it, and then so it's kind
of like how you know, well,

850
01:14:02.920 --> 01:14:06.119
and they made him feel shitty and
like he's not supported and can he actually

851
01:14:06.159 --> 01:14:10.960
turn to them, which is its
own kind of thing. But I do

852
01:14:11.199 --> 01:14:16.279
think I do think that there is
like maybe like viewers in general, if

853
01:14:16.319 --> 01:14:23.479
you're thinking about this hero's journey and
you want your luke to be infallible,

854
01:14:23.920 --> 01:14:27.720
and I feel like you see it
happen now people don't like these stories because

855
01:14:27.920 --> 01:14:30.760
their luke is not infallible, And
I'm like, I'm sorry, did you

856
01:14:30.840 --> 01:14:35.680
see the same character that I did? Like that's a person who but also

857
01:14:35.760 --> 01:14:40.479
to even say that love isn't it
makes you fallible? I mean it does.

858
01:14:40.840 --> 01:14:43.239
I mean that's part of it is
that it's exactly like you're saying,

859
01:14:43.319 --> 01:14:46.560
is that I want you to be
human much like Star Trek, right,

860
01:14:46.880 --> 01:14:51.840
I want that. I want the
experience of space and its isolation to show

861
01:14:51.880 --> 01:14:56.279
me what it is to be a
human again, to go through the humanity

862
01:14:56.439 --> 01:15:01.439
and what it means to experience these
things. The Empire eventually becomes the best

863
01:15:01.520 --> 01:15:11.079
Star Wars by popular consensus. Y
Star Trek two is pretty quickly viewed as

864
01:15:12.680 --> 01:15:17.439
the best Star Trek period, except
for a smattering of critics who are just

865
01:15:17.560 --> 01:15:23.079
like, yeah, this is you
know, it's shlock lasers. Yeah,

866
01:15:23.840 --> 01:15:30.720
uh, I'm wondering through this lens
of power fantasy. Because one of the

867
01:15:30.800 --> 01:15:39.239
things that have just made more aware
of through larger media literacy is while US

868
01:15:39.880 --> 01:15:43.720
US three rubs are watching movies and
wondering how we can engage with them,

869
01:15:43.760 --> 01:15:45.840
what it means, what it's saying
about the world, a lot of people

870
01:15:46.039 --> 01:15:54.399
just watch it and want escapism,
which Star Wars provides so plentifully, so

871
01:15:54.600 --> 01:15:59.039
pountifully, and they want their characters
to kind of exist as ciphers, so

872
01:15:59.119 --> 01:16:03.880
they can exists as power fantasies.
Yeah, and I just why superhero I've

873
01:16:03.920 --> 01:16:14.079
just been so popular, especially since
nine to eleven. I just reject I

874
01:16:14.199 --> 01:16:16.479
just reject all of that though.
I just can't. But it's true.

875
01:16:17.359 --> 01:16:23.640
If a hero is not it's like
if your hero is not fallible, it's

876
01:16:23.680 --> 01:16:25.640
not. I mean it goes all
the way back to the Greeks. I

877
01:16:25.720 --> 01:16:28.680
mean you, the hero had to
have a flaw, right like you.

878
01:16:28.960 --> 01:16:32.399
I don't with you. I agree
with you. We are not fighting right

879
01:16:32.479 --> 01:16:41.680
now. We are not fighting right
I agree with you. We've got John

880
01:16:41.760 --> 01:16:45.680
McClain, We've got Indiana Jones,
We've got Neo at least in the first

881
01:16:45.760 --> 01:16:54.800
Matrix, our favorite heroes, Freaking
Skywalker, Han Soolo, these are great

882
01:16:54.840 --> 01:17:03.840
heroes. Princess Leah, Uh,
Captain and Kurt. They're all making they're

883
01:17:03.880 --> 01:17:15.920
all making mistakes left and right.
And then you cut to you cut to

884
01:17:18.319 --> 01:17:25.399
just to be in vogue, uh
Marvel, where any mistake is kind of

885
01:17:26.319 --> 01:17:31.000
cut through with some sort of quip
based off of the template that iron Man

886
01:17:31.399 --> 01:17:40.279
sets, because iron Man's coping mechanism
is humor. But that quickly gets adopted

887
01:17:40.399 --> 01:17:44.680
everywhere, and suddenly even whenever your
character is making a mistake, they are

888
01:17:44.800 --> 01:17:48.640
still above the situation, which is
able to connect with a whole bunch of

889
01:17:48.720 --> 01:17:57.119
people because the character is in charge
at all points. Yeah, I disagree

890
01:17:57.159 --> 01:18:00.159
with that. I think that in
the Marvel you know, like I'm a

891
01:18:00.239 --> 01:18:03.119
huge defender of Marvel, but I
think that they do make real mistakes and

892
01:18:03.159 --> 01:18:09.159
there are real there are real consequences, Like I'm just I'm just looking at

893
01:18:09.199 --> 01:18:17.760
it, uh anthropologically, Yeah,
that'sologically Wait wait sorry, yeah, Kenny,

894
01:18:17.800 --> 01:18:23.159
what what do you certainly not saying
that it's right or wrong? Just

895
01:18:23.319 --> 01:18:26.960
noticing audience trends are and you're are
you noticing it in the way that people

896
01:18:27.000 --> 01:18:30.159
are absorbing it versus the way it
is being presented. Yes, Going back

897
01:18:30.199 --> 01:18:35.000
to Empire Strikes Back, where Luke
Skywalker and Hans Holo make big honkin mistakes.

898
01:18:35.479 --> 01:18:40.720
They trust the wrong people. They
whenever they are making active decisions,

899
01:18:42.039 --> 01:18:45.800
Han Solo chooses to go to uh, I kind of tune at the last

900
01:18:45.800 --> 01:18:48.760
third, he goes to the Lando
System. Don't really know what happens after

901
01:18:48.840 --> 01:18:59.319
that, damn it. Luke chooses
to leave the training, which contextually,

902
01:18:59.439 --> 01:19:01.520
within the content text of just Empire
Strikes Back, it was viewed as a

903
01:19:01.520 --> 01:19:05.720
wrong decision. Eventually, it's right. Those are failures, and the Joy

904
01:19:05.760 --> 01:19:10.000
of Empire strikes back that this is
a movie that is about failure, and

905
01:19:10.079 --> 01:19:15.920
these characters fail fun they I mean, the ending of Empire strikes back.

906
01:19:15.920 --> 01:19:18.199
I told you guys before, the
Ending of Empire strikes back. For me,

907
01:19:18.239 --> 01:19:21.359
when I was a kid, was
just brutal. It was brutal.

908
01:19:21.520 --> 01:19:28.279
It was like Luke lost a hand. Han is in carbonate. But you

909
01:19:28.359 --> 01:19:31.439
know, there's also this beautiful,
little hopeful thing when Lando and Chewbacca go

910
01:19:31.560 --> 01:19:35.239
off, and I mean, you
know, we're apparently just like a few

911
01:19:35.359 --> 01:19:39.720
days out from the beginning of Jedi, a return of the Jedi. You

912
01:19:39.800 --> 01:19:44.680
know, so how far away did
they have to be from that galaxy to

913
01:19:44.760 --> 01:19:47.000
be able to view it the way
they were viewing it? Eighteen You know,

914
01:19:47.199 --> 01:19:53.039
I've I've I'm just looking at it
like that. I wondered about that

915
01:19:53.119 --> 01:19:59.239
myself, because it could be there
are I'm about to nerd out there are

916
01:20:00.279 --> 01:20:03.680
are you guys feeling? With the
large Magileanic Cloud and the small Magellanic Cloud,

917
01:20:03.720 --> 01:20:09.439
which are actually small galaxies that sort
of are attached to or orbit the

918
01:20:10.159 --> 01:20:14.840
Milky Way. So my theory is
that they're like that that's not the whole

919
01:20:14.960 --> 01:20:18.079
galaxy, that that's maybe like a
small you know, but yeah, they

920
01:20:18.079 --> 01:20:20.880
would have to be like so far
away to be able to be able to

921
01:20:20.960 --> 01:20:25.159
see it like that. But I
don't know. Maybe the Star Wars galaxy

922
01:20:25.279 --> 01:20:29.840
is a small galaxy. Oh oh
my gosh. Yeah, maybe it's like

923
01:20:29.920 --> 01:20:33.880
that galaxy and Men in Black that's
inside the ball and the cats very small,

924
01:20:34.600 --> 01:20:44.600
very a galaxy. You remember that
reveal that maybe rocks I love I've

925
01:20:44.640 --> 01:20:51.359
been a black. We're talking a
lot about Star Wars. Yes, we

926
01:20:51.439 --> 01:20:55.119
talked a lot about Star Trek in
the first half. Okay, yeah,

927
01:20:55.119 --> 01:21:00.199
that's what I was thinking. Oh
good, I think good that this is

928
01:21:00.239 --> 01:21:02.640
good. This is my episode,
everybody, this is my time to shine.

929
01:21:04.880 --> 01:21:09.920
I mean, we could get into
I mean we've touched on the thematic

930
01:21:10.000 --> 01:21:17.880
commonalities both films and both servicing as
deconstructions. The primary property is that they

931
01:21:17.920 --> 01:21:24.960
are calling from so so the the
way you use the word deconstruction, like

932
01:21:25.039 --> 01:21:30.920
I'm sure it's like accurate in the
from like the perspective of film or literary

933
01:21:31.000 --> 01:21:38.039
criticism. Then the anthropological sense,
so theological logical sense, but the way

934
01:21:38.520 --> 01:21:43.920
but the but like, to me, if you're gonna have a one of

935
01:21:43.960 --> 01:21:48.319
the things I dislike about Star Wars
is not as the same story gets told

936
01:21:48.359 --> 01:21:54.800
over and over again. And what
I want is and what I love about

937
01:21:54.880 --> 01:21:59.159
Empire is that it's an evolution.
You know, you call it the deconstruction,

938
01:21:59.279 --> 01:22:02.640
but I think it's like the the
best way for the story to move

939
01:22:02.720 --> 01:22:08.840
forward, like let's do something new, Like let's do the the logical you

940
01:22:08.920 --> 01:22:12.800
know, continuation of the story.
And that's not just do the story again,

941
01:22:12.840 --> 01:22:15.239
which is how I felt about Return
of the Jedi. I felt like

942
01:22:15.319 --> 01:22:16.960
it was it was a new hope
again, you know. I mean,

943
01:22:17.159 --> 01:22:24.680
well, Ryan, you're not wrong. That's exactly because Kenny is the one

944
01:22:24.680 --> 01:22:28.039
who brought this up when we originally
covered Empire, which is that it was

945
01:22:28.239 --> 01:22:33.039
actually an answer to this the feedback
or the that, oh, this is

946
01:22:33.319 --> 01:22:40.000
not something we feel comfortable with,
it does not end happily, this is

947
01:22:40.359 --> 01:22:43.840
not what we wanted to be.
So they actually went back and basically did

948
01:22:43.920 --> 01:22:48.760
the same, right, Yeah,
the same thing. It's it's very it's

949
01:22:48.880 --> 01:22:53.159
very safe. Well, and I
felt the same way about Force Awakens.

950
01:22:53.199 --> 01:22:56.840
I thought I felt like Force Awakens
was yet another retread of the same story,

951
01:22:57.079 --> 01:23:00.840
and then Last Jedi probably at Last
Jedi probably fel it fits more in

952
01:23:00.960 --> 01:23:04.239
with the deconstruction of I think it's
still evolition of but it is doing more

953
01:23:04.279 --> 01:23:10.760
of a deconstruction. And then fucking
Rise of Skywalker comes in and just does

954
01:23:10.800 --> 01:23:14.359
it all again and such a violent
course. Course It's like it's like,

955
01:23:14.720 --> 01:23:17.000
while Return of the Jedi I think
is still a good film, Rise the

956
01:23:17.039 --> 01:23:21.920
Skywalker is like, why did I
like the last one? I don't understand.

957
01:23:23.079 --> 01:23:25.880
The last one is freaking has wedge
antillities in it and that rips dude,

958
01:23:27.439 --> 01:23:32.079
that does read remember all those there's
freaking horses on the stin Destroyers.

959
01:23:32.119 --> 01:23:38.560
That's awesome. I think it was. I think it was because the I

960
01:23:38.760 --> 01:23:47.600
was very I was disappointed in Force
Awakens, and I was mostly confused by

961
01:23:48.720 --> 01:23:53.720
the next one, and which is
what Rises the Skywalker, Last Jedi,

962
01:23:53.880 --> 01:24:00.960
Last okay, Last Jedi and then
rides the Skywalker's the episode nine right or

963
01:24:00.000 --> 01:24:05.840
whatever? Yeah, So and so
that one felt it felt more, It

964
01:24:05.960 --> 01:24:11.199
felt better to me, you know, brings well, it sort of brings

965
01:24:11.239 --> 01:24:15.640
it back to familiar territory. My
my theory on this or so far away

966
01:24:15.680 --> 01:24:19.159
from this thing. But my theory
is that, uh, Last Jedi makes

967
01:24:19.199 --> 01:24:25.560
people feel uncomfortable because it's severe.
It's a lot of failure, it's a

968
01:24:25.720 --> 01:24:30.960
lot of like literal deconstruction of what
it feels like. It's like, I

969
01:24:31.039 --> 01:24:34.479
wonder I like it. Well,
no, it's Last Jedi. And then

970
01:24:34.640 --> 01:24:38.479
Rise of Skywalker is like, listen, it's gonna be okay, we'll bring

971
01:24:38.560 --> 01:24:41.520
back everybody you know. Well,
imagine if in Return of the Jedi,

972
01:24:42.880 --> 01:24:46.640
Yuh Yoda came along and is like, not only is Darth Vader not your

973
01:24:46.760 --> 01:24:53.920
father? Yeah h he didn't actually
know any of us. Yeah uh,

974
01:24:54.399 --> 01:25:02.520
And he's actually a robot because because
that's what kids on the playground were saying,

975
01:25:03.399 --> 01:25:11.279
So you don't have to worry about
anything, and you are actually made

976
01:25:11.279 --> 01:25:17.560
of light tapers. Right, here's
a question for you, please, as

977
01:25:17.640 --> 01:25:23.920
someone who saw this as a kid
when it came out, sorry to call

978
01:25:23.960 --> 01:25:27.439
you out again. Empire, right, is that what we're talking about?

979
01:25:27.560 --> 01:25:31.680
Yeah, Empire? And then presumably
because I pulled the comparison here, you

980
01:25:32.199 --> 01:25:39.079
saw Last Jed I as an adult
when you watched when you watched Empire,

981
01:25:39.159 --> 01:25:41.600
and it made you feel those things
I think I might have already asked a

982
01:25:41.600 --> 01:25:44.520
similar question of like what did you
do with that? Like what did you

983
01:25:44.640 --> 01:25:46.760
take forward with that? Like you
were just feeling uncomfortable or was it like

984
01:25:47.399 --> 01:25:49.720
I think, I think I did
ask you this before and you're like,

985
01:25:49.880 --> 01:25:55.079
I guess it was just this is
the story. And maybe what I'm trying

986
01:25:55.119 --> 01:26:00.560
to get at is like there's this
really good quote. It is quote at

987
01:26:00.680 --> 01:26:04.199
Brendan Lee Mulligan. I think you
know Brandley Melligay is on Dropout. He

988
01:26:04.239 --> 01:26:08.479
does to mention twenty stuff, but
he talks about stories, and he's like,

989
01:26:08.560 --> 01:26:11.279
why do we tell stories to try
to make sense of a world that

990
01:26:11.359 --> 01:26:16.479
could be terrifying and enormous? And
I almost wonder if like let's say we

991
01:26:16.600 --> 01:26:20.119
watch you watch a movie where you're
like this is scary, but there's still

992
01:26:20.159 --> 01:26:25.199
some hope. And as a child, I'm thinking to myself, this is

993
01:26:25.239 --> 01:26:30.560
a way Like if my heroes can
make mistakes and can go through this terrible

994
01:26:30.600 --> 01:26:38.279
stuff, maybe I can too.
And there's and it's the same for like

995
01:26:38.399 --> 01:26:41.840
Wrath of Cohn too, Like my
heroes weren't a terrible place, but they

996
01:26:41.880 --> 01:26:44.880
can get through this. They can
move through this, like Spot can die,

997
01:26:44.920 --> 01:26:47.720
but we can figure this out,
and I don't know what I'm going

998
01:26:47.800 --> 01:26:56.119
for. I think maybe I'm like, h like this kind of experience of

999
01:26:56.279 --> 01:27:03.239
just watching these properties independent of like
like just being twelve years old and watching

1000
01:27:03.279 --> 01:27:06.920
a property and being like, what
is the story telling me? Versus say,

1001
01:27:08.079 --> 01:27:12.960
being so involved in like the long
history of a thing. What everyone

1002
01:27:13.039 --> 01:27:16.960
on the internet is saying, you
know what I mean, like my making

1003
01:27:17.039 --> 01:27:21.119
sense? Yeah, and we didn't
have Yeah, and there was so much

1004
01:27:21.279 --> 01:27:28.800
less discourse about it because the Internet
was twenty years off, so like the

1005
01:27:29.800 --> 01:27:34.119
or ten to fifteen, so the
but you just talked to your friends at

1006
01:27:34.159 --> 01:27:44.079
school about it and stuff. Yeah, and the there was something I wanted

1007
01:27:44.119 --> 01:27:46.800
to say, maybe it will return
to me. But yeah, I think

1008
01:27:46.960 --> 01:27:50.640
my experience of it was it's sort
of I mean, the whole thing like

1009
01:27:51.199 --> 01:28:00.119
colors my just my growth and how
to appreciate story that it's like can't like

1010
01:28:00.279 --> 01:28:03.880
it's impossible for me to like separate
it. But I think you make a

1011
01:28:03.920 --> 01:28:08.079
good point and that maybe the way
I could sort of make a good comparison

1012
01:28:08.239 --> 01:28:14.199
is by comparing it to the last
Jedi. You know, my experience with

1013
01:28:14.319 --> 01:28:17.800
that. But see, the thing
is like Empire, I feel like it

1014
01:28:18.680 --> 01:28:23.800
did some weird things. It did
some scary, uncomfortable things, but it's

1015
01:28:23.840 --> 01:28:29.880
still but it but it, But
it made even more sense in the world

1016
01:28:30.279 --> 01:28:32.399
as I perceived that, you know, the Star Wars universe. It was

1017
01:28:32.439 --> 01:28:36.399
like, yeah, that fits perfectly
with Last Jedi. I did not feel

1018
01:28:36.439 --> 01:28:40.439
that. I felt like it did
a lot of uncomfortable stuff and it did

1019
01:28:40.600 --> 01:28:43.960
not fit in the I was just
like, that doesn't feel right to me,

1020
01:28:44.439 --> 01:28:47.600
you know, And that could just
be because I'm my age and I

1021
01:28:48.239 --> 01:28:53.119
experienced these in the way I did. You know, who knows so,

1022
01:28:53.560 --> 01:28:56.439
but I don't know. Go ahead, Kenny, Well, this goes to

1023
01:28:56.600 --> 01:29:01.000
that thing that Ashton I love to
talk about. I think Star Trek doesn't

1024
01:29:01.079 --> 01:29:06.159
have to do this, but that
Star Wars feeling thing that, yeah,

1025
01:29:06.840 --> 01:29:11.960
every single person about to make a
Star Wars movie has to go. We're

1026
01:29:12.000 --> 01:29:15.239
gonna try and get back to nineteen
seventy seven the way that you saw it

1027
01:29:15.319 --> 01:29:18.319
back in the day. Yeah,
exactly. I was supposed to start exactly

1028
01:29:18.760 --> 01:29:27.359
where whenever Next Generation drops. No
one liked it, and to be fair,

1029
01:29:27.560 --> 01:29:33.920
those first two seasons are rough,
and also the orders from on High

1030
01:29:34.399 --> 01:29:40.119
were no references to the original series. Don't do it this has to stand

1031
01:29:40.159 --> 01:29:44.680
on its own except for a brief
you see McCoy a little bit, and

1032
01:29:44.720 --> 01:29:47.720
there's like one sequel to an episode. Other than that, Mentioning the original

1033
01:29:47.800 --> 01:29:54.880
series is so difficult. So whenever
the show got good, then our definition

1034
01:29:54.960 --> 01:29:59.279
of what Star Trek could be was
allowed to be a lot wider. And

1035
01:29:59.399 --> 01:30:03.119
you know how that the fact that
Star Trek has seventy eight different episodes seventy

1036
01:30:03.119 --> 01:30:08.039
eight different types of stories or seventy
nine depending on who you ask, and

1037
01:30:08.119 --> 01:30:15.000
then the movies that and that fits
sort of with the overall world building of

1038
01:30:15.119 --> 01:30:17.920
each franchise, because you know,
we got a long time ago in a

1039
01:30:17.960 --> 01:30:23.359
galaxy, far far away, used
future. You know, all those those

1040
01:30:23.600 --> 01:30:28.520
iconic things that you associate with Star
Wars, they feel more like to me,

1041
01:30:29.159 --> 01:30:38.159
a you know, repetitive. This
is this is about the way human

1042
01:30:38.199 --> 01:30:41.000
beings have always been, no matter
where they are, no matter what time

1043
01:30:41.079 --> 01:30:45.960
it is, Whereas with with Star
Trek, it's about a utopian future and

1044
01:30:45.039 --> 01:30:48.680
it's about like we're going to move
forward and we're going to and things are

1045
01:30:48.680 --> 01:30:53.279
going to be different. So I
feel like the storytelling and each franchise is

1046
01:30:53.359 --> 01:30:59.760
kind of followed the mythos of each
franchise trench even then, so the show

1047
01:31:00.439 --> 01:31:04.319
it does become it's always pointing towards
the utopia. That's correct. That is

1048
01:31:04.359 --> 01:31:09.199
one of the things that I love
so much about Star Trek. And also

1049
01:31:09.319 --> 01:31:13.359
how many times does Star Trek violate
that notion of we live in a perfect

1050
01:31:13.399 --> 01:31:23.119
society, but it achieves that Star
Trek feeling like Star Trek two not exactly

1051
01:31:23.479 --> 01:31:28.760
a picture of utopian ideals. But
most everyone is just like, yeah,

1052
01:31:28.880 --> 01:31:31.640
it's the best one, because you
know, even though Star Trek six is

1053
01:31:31.720 --> 01:31:35.479
my favorite, my favorite film of
all time, I can't really argue that

1054
01:31:35.560 --> 01:31:42.319
Star Trek two is probably a better
made movie. It's six. Six is

1055
01:31:42.640 --> 01:31:53.079
the one where they are basically space
Chernobyl explodes and it's basically a space We

1056
01:31:53.199 --> 01:31:59.079
finally clicking on that one. Okay, yeah, okay, all right?

1057
01:32:00.159 --> 01:32:02.399
Asked, have you seen Star Trek
six? O Kenny so exciting? I

1058
01:32:02.439 --> 01:32:06.520
discovered country a couple of years.
I haven't seen it, so I wanted

1059
01:32:06.560 --> 01:32:10.319
to. I wanted to. Just
I'm going to say one more thing about

1060
01:32:10.359 --> 01:32:14.880
my my experience as a child seeing
the Star Wars franchise, which I was

1061
01:32:14.960 --> 01:32:18.039
much more invested in as a child
than the Star Trek, Like I kind

1062
01:32:18.039 --> 01:32:24.039
of lost track of Star Trek on
Next Track Truck. I lost track of

1063
01:32:24.159 --> 01:32:31.159
Trek on Next Generation and then got
back into it later the But for Star

1064
01:32:31.199 --> 01:32:36.920
Wars, one of the things that
happened was like Return of the Jedi,

1065
01:32:38.960 --> 01:32:41.199
Like you all said, it was
a course correction or it was kind of

1066
01:32:41.239 --> 01:32:44.359
a going back to the original.
And I think the complain of many people

1067
01:32:44.359 --> 01:32:45.920
who were my age at the time, like we were teenagers and we were

1068
01:32:45.960 --> 01:32:48.479
trying to be grown up or we
were trying to be like you know,

1069
01:32:48.560 --> 01:32:51.399
and so like the Empire strikes Back
was like, oh, yeah, it's

1070
01:32:51.399 --> 01:32:55.239
so dark and cool, and you
know, like, oh he got his

1071
01:32:55.279 --> 01:32:58.039
handcut off and all that. And
then when Return of the Jedi came around,

1072
01:32:58.800 --> 01:33:02.840
you know, happy Hollywood in everything
turns out perfectly. And and also

1073
01:33:03.159 --> 01:33:09.640
there are ample merchandising opportunities with Teddy
Bears in it, you know. The

1074
01:33:10.319 --> 01:33:14.560
the complaint that's the complaint is oh, they kitty fight it again. But

1075
01:33:14.680 --> 01:33:17.960
the funny thing about that is that
but it was the kitty the kitty fight

1076
01:33:18.039 --> 01:33:24.039
elements in nineteen seventy seven that got
us in in the first place, you

1077
01:33:24.119 --> 01:33:27.239
know. But then in the mid
eighties it was like, no, well,

1078
01:33:27.319 --> 01:33:30.960
you know, it's so it kind
of I think one of the complaints

1079
01:33:30.039 --> 01:33:33.520
about that people my age have about
Star Wars is it didn't grow up with

1080
01:33:33.640 --> 01:33:38.920
me. It started to, and
then it didn't. You know, so

1081
01:33:39.920 --> 01:33:45.319
yeah did grow up. Yeah,
and Star Treks was people because it did.

1082
01:33:45.920 --> 01:33:51.520
You find it. The storytelling matures
a lot, even though the franchise

1083
01:33:51.600 --> 01:33:59.960
is still basically people parading around in
some version of space pajamas. But because

1084
01:34:00.800 --> 01:34:05.640
Star Wars there's seemingly is so much
less of it, even though there's not.

1085
01:34:06.600 --> 01:34:13.399
Uh, the economics of it dictate
that it consistently goes back to that

1086
01:34:13.560 --> 01:34:19.119
nineteen seventy seven feeling, and then
it becomes recursive because people ultimately get too

1087
01:34:19.479 --> 01:34:24.800
scared. Even Lucas post Phantom Menace, even though there's stuff maked into Phantom

1088
01:34:24.800 --> 01:34:29.159
Menace where he's like, that's poetry. It rhymes well. I like,

1089
01:34:29.439 --> 01:34:34.479
even in episodes two and three he
tries to go back more to basics a

1090
01:34:34.640 --> 01:34:39.239
little bit and does, of course
correction and stuff. What do you think

1091
01:34:39.279 --> 01:34:44.319
asmen? It's not like Ryan wanted
to say something, oh thank you,

1092
01:34:44.399 --> 01:34:47.039
Asmin, I was gonna say,
you're gonna you're gonna not like what I'm

1093
01:34:47.079 --> 01:34:53.960
gonna say, but we're gonna fight. But but we're not. But but

1094
01:34:54.199 --> 01:35:00.319
Droids and Ewoks those two shows,
like, I've never watched to them,

1095
01:35:00.359 --> 01:35:03.399
I don't think, and I didn't
like them because they were a kid's cartoon

1096
01:35:03.479 --> 01:35:06.199
that was based on Star Wars,
which at the time pissed me off,

1097
01:35:09.079 --> 01:35:12.199
I know, right exactly, and
that and and as a and as a

1098
01:35:12.479 --> 01:35:15.439
you know, late teen who it
just pissed me off. It was like,

1099
01:35:15.479 --> 01:35:18.039
what are they doing to my Star
Wars? And of course the answer

1100
01:35:18.199 --> 01:35:21.680
is, what do you mean?
That's what they've always been doing, except

1101
01:35:21.760 --> 01:35:29.359
for like maybe Empire and so chill
out. Like Kevin Smith said about the

1102
01:35:29.399 --> 01:35:32.439
holiday special, it ain't Star Wars, but what is? But what is

1103
01:35:32.520 --> 01:35:35.960
Star Wars? Because exactly what I
was just thinking, ok, Droids and

1104
01:35:36.039 --> 01:35:42.520
Ewoks came from George Lucas, it's
Star Wars. This is what he thinks

1105
01:35:42.560 --> 01:35:45.840
Star Wars is, and the audience
and then eventually Lucasfilm were just like,

1106
01:35:46.439 --> 01:35:50.279
it's not Star Wars. I think
we can all agree that it's well,

1107
01:35:50.479 --> 01:35:55.199
maybe we can all agree that it's
all Star Wars. It's all Star Wars.

1108
01:35:55.319 --> 01:36:00.399
Or at least I can. But
the shit that I mean that that

1109
01:36:00.520 --> 01:36:04.319
is the fun with start whenever fandom
is going correctly, and then you get

1110
01:36:04.359 --> 01:36:09.079
to play the games of how do
all of these puzzle pieces fit? And

1111
01:36:09.199 --> 01:36:14.399
that's a lot of fun. And
then you cut to Star Trek two,

1112
01:36:14.920 --> 01:36:23.720
which is such a more grown up
version of the TV show it is,

1113
01:36:24.159 --> 01:36:31.079
but it's it's still Star Trek,
yeah, except that this time McCoy's going

1114
01:36:32.239 --> 01:36:35.960
here, I got this robul and
al aboord afraid of that brings it in

1115
01:36:36.039 --> 01:36:40.560
every once in a while, and
Kark's like, what's this clean on aperdisiacs.

1116
01:36:43.119 --> 01:36:47.680
I'm very fast. I'm very interested
in the betrayal of something not aligning

1117
01:36:47.760 --> 01:36:51.800
with the seasons of our lives,
you know, like when you love something.

1118
01:36:53.279 --> 01:36:56.720
Oh yeah, I want to have
a conversation with you that's been in

1119
01:36:56.880 --> 01:37:01.159
twenty years and hopefully I'll still be
alive that I want just just do a

1120
01:37:01.760 --> 01:37:08.319
I'll be seventy five, but just
to see, like how your relationship with

1121
01:37:08.399 --> 01:37:11.199
Star Wars has changed as one's going
to be like, Ryan, You're right,

1122
01:37:11.399 --> 01:37:14.960
last Jedi is the worst one.
Yeah, I see it. Rise

1123
01:37:15.000 --> 01:37:18.680
of Skywalker a genius piece of cinema. I also liked it because there were

1124
01:37:18.760 --> 01:37:28.840
horses on that hall. Yeah,
because I've sort of said this a few

1125
01:37:28.920 --> 01:37:33.640
times. I don't know. It's
almost like, yeah, Star Trek is

1126
01:37:33.720 --> 01:37:36.840
to exist outside of the expectation of
getting to grow with you, but Star

1127
01:37:36.880 --> 01:37:43.119
Wars has to. And that is
my suspicion too of why when people returned

1128
01:37:43.159 --> 01:37:45.319
to the sequel trilogy years later,
it's like, well, I want this

1129
01:37:45.399 --> 01:37:47.560
to have grown with me. Look
at these people who are the same age

1130
01:37:47.600 --> 01:37:50.840
as me now or even older.
And then if it betrays you, it's

1131
01:37:50.960 --> 01:37:56.600
like, I feel like, what
is this thing to me? It's just

1132
01:37:56.720 --> 01:38:00.920
a It's just a curious piece of
like I I mean, the best also

1133
01:38:00.960 --> 01:38:05.880
best to comparison I have for myself
is Harry Potter U, which fucked Joeyhan,

1134
01:38:06.159 --> 01:38:10.920
but like I literally read the first
Harry Potter book when I was eleven

1135
01:38:11.000 --> 01:38:14.119
years old, the same age as
Harry Potter. I read the last Harry

1136
01:38:14.159 --> 01:38:17.000
Potter book when I was seventeen eighteen
years old, the same age as Harry

1137
01:38:17.039 --> 01:38:20.279
Potter. In that book, I
think Dean's about your age. I think

1138
01:38:20.800 --> 01:38:24.119
I think that the same age.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's wild.

1139
01:38:24.359 --> 01:38:28.439
It aligned perfectly with me, so
we even like went through things at

1140
01:38:28.479 --> 01:38:31.960
the same time. Like it was
wild. Uh that doesn't happen for everybody,

1141
01:38:32.000 --> 01:38:34.840
you know, And and that was
intentional, from what I understand,

1142
01:38:34.880 --> 01:38:40.680
she did that on purpose, I
would sink. Yeah, she tried to

1143
01:38:40.760 --> 01:38:47.159
age. She tried to age the
like maturity level of the storytelling with the

1144
01:38:47.359 --> 01:38:54.079
age of the readers. So yeah, and interestingly, now you know,

1145
01:38:54.239 --> 01:38:58.279
I would back when I was less
mad, you know, I found myself

1146
01:38:58.680 --> 01:39:00.279
like the fifth Harry Potter book,
for instance, was my least favorite for

1147
01:39:00.439 --> 01:39:05.399
years. I returned to it as
like in my early thirties, and I

1148
01:39:05.520 --> 01:39:10.399
was like, uh, oh,
is this the best book? What just

1149
01:39:10.600 --> 01:39:16.000
happened? Because it was like the
actual clear representation of the real threat of

1150
01:39:16.920 --> 01:39:25.279
which is not necessarily the big bad, but it's the it's the structures themselves

1151
01:39:26.800 --> 01:39:30.720
being on the side of it,
and you know, like effectively like oppressing

1152
01:39:31.079 --> 01:39:35.319
individuals and it's not necessarily who you
might think. And I was like,

1153
01:39:35.399 --> 01:39:40.079
oh my god, because I'm like
in the midst of like Trump presidency shit,

1154
01:39:40.239 --> 01:39:43.920
and like now this thing is actually
very much making sense for me,

1155
01:39:44.039 --> 01:39:53.640
and now I can't read any of
them because but yeah, perhaps Joe Anne's

1156
01:39:54.960 --> 01:40:01.800
living in a culture where we're just
more aware of how the audience communicates with

1157
01:40:01.920 --> 01:40:04.920
these things. And then just to
bring it back on the theme, how

1158
01:40:05.039 --> 01:40:11.600
interesting that both of these things are
allowed to grow into something that is more

1159
01:40:11.640 --> 01:40:17.279
emotionally rich without the direct involvement of
the creator overseeing the day to day.

1160
01:40:17.600 --> 01:40:25.079
Yeah. Sure, that's kind of
amazing. Yeah, yeah, I wanted

1161
01:40:25.199 --> 01:40:29.680
to say, this is something that's
been in my burning in my head about.

1162
01:40:29.960 --> 01:40:33.000
I know, it's called Star Wars
because they fight and start trek because

1163
01:40:33.760 --> 01:40:39.439
that was right, because they voyage, right. I know you love the

1164
01:40:39.560 --> 01:40:45.760
prequels Aspen, Do you love the
prequels? I love the Star Wars prequels.

1165
01:40:45.840 --> 01:40:51.640
Okay, okay, yeah, so
and I I was like slightly disappointed

1166
01:40:51.680 --> 01:40:57.039
in the prequels, but I wasn't
like on the like I'm never on the

1167
01:40:57.199 --> 01:41:00.800
like extreme fandom train, Like I
never like, I'm just like you people

1168
01:41:00.880 --> 01:41:05.199
need to calm the fuck down.
But but but something that the prequels did

1169
01:41:05.319 --> 01:41:15.039
do, like that I thought was
amazing was they brought like they made watching

1170
01:41:15.159 --> 01:41:19.239
the original trilogy so much more intense, like when you like, I've seen

1171
01:41:19.319 --> 01:41:25.680
these these things on YouTube where they
cut scenes between the prequels and the original,

1172
01:41:25.880 --> 01:41:28.439
like the original Star Wars, like
you know, well, your father

1173
01:41:28.720 --> 01:41:31.680
was killed by a young Jedi named
Anakin Skywalker. And then they show the

1174
01:41:31.720 --> 01:41:36.159
battle between between Obi Wan and you
know, it's like, and the look

1175
01:41:36.239 --> 01:41:41.279
on that person's face that they did
in the movie that came out in nineteen

1176
01:41:41.359 --> 01:41:46.520
seventy seven looks like they know,
but they didn't because nobody knew what was

1177
01:41:46.560 --> 01:41:49.119
going to happen. Nobody knew what
with the prequels were going to contain.

1178
01:41:49.199 --> 01:41:53.000
George might have known a little bit
or had some idea, right, and

1179
01:41:54.079 --> 01:41:58.359
and and it's just amazing, like
the way it all fits together, and

1180
01:41:58.640 --> 01:42:02.720
like I can watch I can watch
a New Hope now and it's so much

1181
01:42:03.680 --> 01:42:08.960
has so much more depth because of
the prequels and because of everything else in

1182
01:42:09.079 --> 01:42:12.279
Star Wars. It's like, oh
my god, you have no idea all

1183
01:42:12.319 --> 01:42:14.600
the stuff that's going on there.
And and I think the thing is is

1184
01:42:14.760 --> 01:42:17.319
at the time you kind of felt
that like, oh, there's a lot

1185
01:42:17.439 --> 01:42:20.640
going on here, because they were
implying that there's a lot going on here,

1186
01:42:20.880 --> 01:42:24.640
but they didn't know exactly what it
was. And then later on they

1187
01:42:24.960 --> 01:42:26.640
you know, it's like, oh, well, here's what it was,

1188
01:42:27.199 --> 01:42:31.439
and that just works so well,
well, if you're interested in that,

1189
01:42:31.960 --> 01:42:39.680
can I interest you in the Clone
Wars? Actually I actually started. I've

1190
01:42:39.760 --> 01:42:43.720
watched. I've watched a couple of
seasons, but I got I got bored

1191
01:42:43.760 --> 01:42:46.279
of it. So there's there's a
lot that is yeah, so you're like,

1192
01:42:46.399 --> 01:42:48.520
okay, cool, and then there's
a lot of it that you're like,

1193
01:42:49.079 --> 01:42:53.199
this is peak television, right.
I think you probably just skip to

1194
01:42:53.239 --> 01:42:58.800
Star Wars Rebels because that's what I
did. Rebels was good from the get

1195
01:42:58.880 --> 01:43:02.239
go. Are you you could watch
uh, you could watch arcs of Clone

1196
01:43:02.279 --> 01:43:06.960
Wars that are very specifically good.
I started watching Rebels with Dylan. We

1197
01:43:08.079 --> 01:43:12.600
watched a few Star Wars episodes before
he yeah, before he got tired of

1198
01:43:12.680 --> 01:43:16.439
it. But yeah, and then
it's it's like, you know, and

1199
01:43:16.520 --> 01:43:25.159
sort of the culmination of that whole
effect is the last episode of the first

1200
01:43:25.279 --> 01:43:29.079
of this I guess it's the second
season of The Mandalorian where Luke appears right

1201
01:43:29.279 --> 01:43:32.760
and you're and you're you you're the
top of your head blows off because it's

1202
01:43:32.800 --> 01:43:36.680
like Luke Skywalker at the peak of
his powers, you know, suddenly appearing

1203
01:43:36.720 --> 01:43:40.800
in context in the right and it's
just like, this is amazing. So

1204
01:43:41.039 --> 01:43:44.479
but I know, are you say
you like that this is but by Kenny

1205
01:43:44.600 --> 01:43:46.359
Kenny, I'm kind of with you, Kenny. But it's funny. I

1206
01:43:46.720 --> 01:43:54.199
want to make space for the fact
that like that probably did affect people way

1207
01:43:54.319 --> 01:43:57.960
differently than it affected us, and
like it sounds like it affected Ryan and

1208
01:43:58.039 --> 01:44:01.880
a like fuck yah kind of way. We had a reaction, Okay,

1209
01:44:02.760 --> 01:44:06.960
but really it's so funny because my
reaction was, oh my god, this

1210
01:44:08.199 --> 01:44:12.439
is so awesome and so amazing,
and like I'm in tears, like because

1211
01:44:12.479 --> 01:44:16.159
it's so beautiful to me. You
were talking in our Patreon episode, which

1212
01:44:16.279 --> 01:44:18.479
you know, you can find a
patreon dot com sast truck horse pod for

1213
01:44:18.520 --> 01:44:23.239
five dollars a month for how much? How much am I five dollars a

1214
01:44:23.279 --> 01:44:32.560
month a month talking talking about Spielberg
being a manipulative filmmaker, and make no

1215
01:44:32.720 --> 01:44:36.319
mistake, he is. I buy
into that. But whenever I see Luke

1216
01:44:36.319 --> 01:44:42.000
Skywalker at the tail end of Mandalorian, I'm going, oh boy, they

1217
01:44:42.039 --> 01:44:46.600
are manipulating the audience into having an
emotional moment that that is not earned.

1218
01:44:47.119 --> 01:44:53.079
Based on the soul merits of Mandalorian, as a TV show total, Luke

1219
01:44:53.119 --> 01:45:01.800
Skywalker serves no he there is no
emotional connection between this as opposed to like,

1220
01:45:02.000 --> 01:45:04.600
imagine if a character that we had
met with in the context of the

1221
01:45:04.640 --> 01:45:10.760
show had come in and saved it, and you were cheering, But there

1222
01:45:10.880 --> 01:45:14.880
is an emotional connection if you're me, Kenny, this is like what I

1223
01:45:15.000 --> 01:45:24.079
was arguing to you about all of
a Soca. Right. What Ryan experienced

1224
01:45:24.319 --> 01:45:27.680
is like what I was experiencing watching
a SOCA, And now I have a

1225
01:45:27.760 --> 01:45:31.640
lot more empathy. And what you
watch and what you watch first, what

1226
01:45:31.800 --> 01:45:35.880
you watch first and what pulls you
into the franchise has a big effect on

1227
01:45:36.039 --> 01:45:39.600
how you view the rest of the
franchise and how it feels to you.

1228
01:45:40.319 --> 01:45:43.319
And so like we all have to
like have we all have to have like

1229
01:45:43.479 --> 01:45:48.239
tolerance for our different experiences of the
franchise. Yes, Star Wars was the

1230
01:45:48.359 --> 01:45:55.520
first movie I watched on this planet? Is that true? Yes, a

1231
01:45:55.600 --> 01:45:59.520
new hope. Star Wars Empire Strikes
Back in Return of the Jedi were on

1232
01:45:59.600 --> 01:46:03.920
a v HS that my mom kept
in perpetual circulation. I wasn't even a

1233
01:46:04.039 --> 01:46:09.640
year old. I'm talking about newborn
status. Well, that's why he couldn't

1234
01:46:09.640 --> 01:46:15.720
remember anything, Kenny, So like
those movies are like, Kenny, it

1235
01:46:15.760 --> 01:46:18.600
sounds like what you were trying to
say is art is a binary Yes,

1236
01:46:18.680 --> 01:46:23.279
that's right. And what we're trying
to say is art is subjective. You

1237
01:46:23.359 --> 01:46:27.239
know, it's either good or bad, Kenny. If we ever know,

1238
01:46:28.079 --> 01:46:30.199
if we ever do a podcast together, Kenny, which I think we are

1239
01:46:30.279 --> 01:46:35.119
destined to do sometime down the road
because we keep like toying with it with

1240
01:46:35.279 --> 01:46:40.800
things like this, But if we
ever do a podcast together, it's going

1241
01:46:40.960 --> 01:46:48.560
to be we're gonna We're gonna dig
into the the whole. We're gonna make

1242
01:46:48.640 --> 01:46:54.000
some sense of the whole subjectivity,
the whole subjective experience of art thing that's

1243
01:46:54.359 --> 01:46:57.479
or of media thing. That's what
we're gonna do. I mean, art

1244
01:46:57.560 --> 01:47:00.199
is totally subjective, of course it
is. Well, I guess while you're

1245
01:47:00.239 --> 01:47:12.439
having that podcast time, I'll just
go fuck myself speaking. I'll be busy

1246
01:47:15.640 --> 01:47:21.840
speaking of fucking myself. Yeah.
I think it's time to play our podcast

1247
01:47:23.119 --> 01:47:28.319
favorite game, I starship It.
I've been thinking about this, you guys

1248
01:47:30.000 --> 01:47:33.800
a long time ago. Start dating. This week, I quoted a boat,

1249
01:47:34.439 --> 01:47:39.960
I dated a game, but none
of them could warp mine drive into

1250
01:47:40.199 --> 01:47:47.439
hyper space. The best of both
worlds kept me in the second place.

1251
01:47:51.039 --> 01:47:57.920
Captain slog on a Halla Kron.
I wanted a song. I pend a

1252
01:47:58.239 --> 01:48:09.640
song. Seventy more minutes subvise in
super high dev afore the USS Enterprise dt

1253
01:48:10.119 --> 01:48:16.720
F. Don't you take my walk
lighter and clip it. Don't you take

1254
01:48:16.800 --> 01:48:20.720
my red shirt, buddy and nip
it. If you spill the tea,

1255
01:48:20.960 --> 01:48:27.520
I'm gonna sip it. A starship
it it's so good, it is good.

1256
01:48:27.800 --> 01:48:30.560
I'm so impressed by that. Now
that's been What is so good?

1257
01:48:30.600 --> 01:48:36.000
What are we about to do?
We're about to give our Oh shit,

1258
01:48:36.199 --> 01:48:42.279
I hope I wrote this down from
last week. We're are our favorite ships

1259
01:48:43.119 --> 01:48:47.359
as in the ships that fly in
space and in the sky, and also

1260
01:48:47.439 --> 01:48:54.199
her favorite romantic ships from both properties. And this is any vehicle, right,

1261
01:48:54.520 --> 01:48:57.039
Yes, it could also be any
vehicle, which is an intendant.

1262
01:48:57.079 --> 01:49:00.760
We had to add because we've been
watching Ewoks. Makes it easy, I

1263
01:49:00.840 --> 01:49:02.680
think, right, because it could
be anything. You could do a haunt

1264
01:49:02.760 --> 01:49:05.079
on. You know, it can
be anything. I'd say that you're you're

1265
01:49:05.279 --> 01:49:10.880
you're writing, but actually I say
it was easy. But this is incredibly

1266
01:49:11.039 --> 01:49:15.720
hard because there's so much iconic shit
in both of these films, I mean,

1267
01:49:15.520 --> 01:49:20.720
every single going on. It's so
difficult to choose. And I and

1268
01:49:20.880 --> 01:49:25.920
you know, I've been listening to
past episode yell and how Aspen always kind

1269
01:49:25.920 --> 01:49:30.520
of cops out and makes some cheesy
thing about the relationship, like like the

1270
01:49:30.680 --> 01:49:35.920
character and freedom or the character and
themselves or something like that. Yeah,

1271
01:49:36.319 --> 01:49:41.000
that's right, I wishy wash,
she spit me out of your mouth,

1272
01:49:43.640 --> 01:49:46.720
just giving you just just as they
say, taking the piss Aspen, but

1273
01:49:47.039 --> 01:49:51.720
giving you shit. But British friends
of ours. Yeah yeah, but uh

1274
01:49:53.800 --> 01:49:57.279
yeah, I've been thinking about it
and it's hard. But who's going first?

1275
01:49:58.279 --> 01:50:00.920
I wrote down stuff, and I'm
like, where did I write it

1276
01:50:01.039 --> 01:50:05.920
down? Okay? Wait, what
excellent question? Where did I? Where

1277
01:50:05.960 --> 01:50:10.640
did I write it down? Everybody? Did you write it down in an

1278
01:50:10.840 --> 01:50:13.960
X wing? Did you write it
down in the Millennium Falcon? Did you

1279
01:50:14.000 --> 01:50:20.760
write it down on the on the
Enterprise or on Chekhov's little ship whose name

1280
01:50:20.920 --> 01:50:24.840
Reliant? There we go, Reliance. Okay, I do know what it

1281
01:50:25.000 --> 01:50:30.600
is for Empire. I do have
mine, and it is the Executor H,

1282
01:50:31.680 --> 01:50:38.880
which is Darth Vader's ship. Ah, it's scary. I am like

1283
01:50:39.079 --> 01:50:46.039
often very overwhelmed by the size of
things, you know, just in general

1284
01:50:46.520 --> 01:50:53.279
and the size. They do a
good job in the film of showing just

1285
01:50:53.399 --> 01:50:56.920
relative size too, because it can
get lost, right, it is so

1286
01:50:57.920 --> 01:51:00.640
massive, it is so huge,
huge, and also like the design of

1287
01:51:00.720 --> 01:51:06.119
it is different than other destroyers Star
Destroyers. It's incredible, yes, Kenny,

1288
01:51:06.680 --> 01:51:13.399
I mean it helps that our first
moving image in Star Wars, the

1289
01:51:13.439 --> 01:51:17.960
motion picture that is not the scroll, is how large that first Star Destroyer

1290
01:51:18.159 --> 01:51:23.239
is, and so whatever you see
is bigger. It's bigger. Do you

1291
01:51:23.319 --> 01:51:26.439
think that George Lucas whenever he was
in the design phase, he was like,

1292
01:51:26.760 --> 01:51:30.319
uh, can we get a bigger
triangle? Yeah, I'm sure it

1293
01:51:30.479 --> 01:51:33.399
was. That looks like it's got
to look like there's like a whole city

1294
01:51:33.600 --> 01:51:38.600
on the triangle. The whole triangle
is one big city. It is one

1295
01:51:38.680 --> 01:51:43.399
big city, like Coroissant is one
big city. The whole planet is the

1296
01:51:43.479 --> 01:51:45.760
whole. That is an excellent choice, Espen. I'm really glad you chose

1297
01:51:45.840 --> 01:51:49.359
that. And just just for some
stats on this, of course, it's

1298
01:51:49.640 --> 01:51:55.840
Execator class start dreadnoughts. So the
ship is over sixty two thousand feet in

1299
01:51:56.000 --> 01:52:01.920
length, has britspiled by thirteen colossal
engines and Class one hyperdrive. Oh more

1300
01:52:01.960 --> 01:52:05.800
than a mile long. More than
a mile long, has over five thousand

1301
01:52:05.880 --> 01:52:10.439
turbo layers. Oh my gosh,
I can carry more than one thousand vassals.

1302
01:52:10.600 --> 01:52:12.760
Oh my, well, just be
aause it's a mile along. Doesn't

1303
01:52:12.800 --> 01:52:17.960
mean that it's better than me.
True. You know what, guys,

1304
01:52:18.319 --> 01:52:23.359
as as I think we know from
Empire strikes back, size matters or not.

1305
01:52:24.000 --> 01:52:29.199
As ex girlfriends have told me,
size matters. That is such a

1306
01:52:29.319 --> 01:52:33.399
cheap joke and everybody makes it all
the time. But yeah, you know,

1307
01:52:34.520 --> 01:52:42.680
I'm sure your penis is nice.
That's very kind. That is such

1308
01:52:42.680 --> 01:52:50.199
a very sweet to thank you,
thank you, it's great, is very

1309
01:52:50.319 --> 01:52:57.600
nice. And I'm sure your vagina
is lovely as well. Thank so much,

1310
01:52:57.920 --> 01:53:03.239
Thank you so much. You're welcome. Speaking of nice penises, Ryan,

1311
01:53:03.279 --> 01:53:09.359
what is your best starship? This
is so tough, okay, an

1312
01:53:09.439 --> 01:53:14.399
Empire. It's so so to difficult
because we got we got fucking Luke's X

1313
01:53:14.439 --> 01:53:18.000
Wing being used as his personal ship
for the first time, like as opposed

1314
01:53:18.000 --> 01:53:20.439
to like it's a fighter he flies
to. You know, it's like this

1315
01:53:20.600 --> 01:53:26.079
is the ship that he gets him
around. Right, we've got the fucking

1316
01:53:26.119 --> 01:53:29.920
Millennium Falcon, which is like the
most iconic ship in all of science fiction.

1317
01:53:30.199 --> 01:53:33.520
It could be argued, maybe not
be the Enterprise, Okay, don't

1318
01:53:33.520 --> 01:53:36.920
pay attention to Kenny's face, but
I was. And then you've got cool

1319
01:53:38.039 --> 01:53:42.079
things that are like only in Empire, like the fucking snow speeder. First

1320
01:53:42.079 --> 01:53:45.279
appearance of the cool snow speeder,
right, and then you got the much

1321
01:53:46.199 --> 01:53:51.560
the the like I think it should
get more attention is the Transport. That's

1322
01:53:51.600 --> 01:53:57.520
a cool looking ship, the Transports
and oh the big the big white poopy.

1323
01:53:58.079 --> 01:54:00.560
Yeah, it's it's pretty cool.
Come off of that they're running away

1324
01:54:00.640 --> 01:54:05.800
with from hawth right. Oh yeah, also for what it's worth to A

1325
01:54:06.479 --> 01:54:10.800
and ATSDS. But oh my god, no, I know I made a

1326
01:54:10.920 --> 01:54:15.920
list. I made a list.
Could you not now? The little cloud

1327
01:54:15.039 --> 01:54:21.119
city ships? You just confused me. It's too it's too difficult. But

1328
01:54:21.399 --> 01:54:26.560
I think, but I think I
know what I'm gonna pick. I think

1329
01:54:26.600 --> 01:54:31.399
I'm picking uh Tonton's. And and
the reason why is because as I was

1330
01:54:31.479 --> 01:54:35.840
watching it this time, with the
noises they make and everything, I figured

1331
01:54:35.840 --> 01:54:42.960
out that they are cold weather,
big riteable pugs. So which is nineteen

1332
01:54:45.600 --> 01:54:51.039
you know, so I and they
and they and when and that scene when

1333
01:54:51.119 --> 01:54:55.600
they cut the one open to put
Luke in to so he can survive.

1334
01:54:55.680 --> 01:54:59.880
That I mean, very clever.
Yeah, so I'm I'm going with Tonton

1335
01:55:00.359 --> 01:55:03.960
love it. I love how Kenny. We've been like struggling and suffering with

1336
01:55:04.119 --> 01:55:09.319
this for months and now we're like, we have too many choices. There's

1337
01:55:09.520 --> 01:55:13.279
there's so many in this in these
both of these movies. Yeah, it's

1338
01:55:13.319 --> 01:55:15.119
true, we're just picking, I
mean, not to many. In Star

1339
01:55:15.199 --> 01:55:19.199
Trek two, we really have.
That's a good point two ships in a

1340
01:55:19.239 --> 01:55:25.600
space station. However, the Reliant, which is my choice NCC one eight

1341
01:55:25.720 --> 01:55:30.359
six four, good choice, critical
piece of ship building. And here's why,

1342
01:55:30.920 --> 01:55:36.239
folks, outside of the animated series, this is the first different federation,

1343
01:55:38.119 --> 01:55:43.479
different starfleet starship that we've seen in
live action period. Yeah, you're

1344
01:55:43.560 --> 01:55:49.600
right, every single other ship,
because making science fiction is expensive, we

1345
01:55:49.800 --> 01:55:55.840
have only seen other at the time, starship class ships, I eat,

1346
01:55:55.920 --> 01:56:01.079
other versions of the Enterprise, right, And the producers were like, Okay,

1347
01:56:01.159 --> 01:56:06.039
the Reliant is Starfleet, but it
has to be different so we can

1348
01:56:06.159 --> 01:56:14.840
visually track it. And so originally
the design was delivered, but it was

1349
01:56:14.920 --> 01:56:19.520
delivered with the engines above and instead
it was delivered to them where it was

1350
01:56:19.600 --> 01:56:23.960
upside down and they're like, yeah, good, And so that's how we

1351
01:56:24.079 --> 01:56:30.560
got the design of the Reliant's cool. It's a tiny, scrappy ship.

1352
01:56:32.239 --> 01:56:36.159
And also one of the things that
is difficult about the Star Trek design is

1353
01:56:36.239 --> 01:56:42.119
that, as opposed to Star Wars
at some point, I mean, Star

1354
01:56:42.199 --> 01:56:46.920
Wars is so good at being able
to indicate scale. Star Trek's ship design

1355
01:56:47.000 --> 01:56:50.319
ethos is that things, at least
at that time, is that ships are

1356
01:56:50.560 --> 01:56:57.319
smooth because you put because and the
thinging is Matt Jefferies was like, if

1357
01:56:57.359 --> 01:57:00.239
you put anything on the outside of
a ship that is going fast, faster

1358
01:57:00.359 --> 01:57:05.520
than light, if it breaks off, it could kill someone. True,

1359
01:57:06.439 --> 01:57:12.399
which is why that everything is smooth
and so reliant. You see bring in

1360
01:57:13.560 --> 01:57:17.640
some aspects of Star warship design,
and there are some things that are able

1361
01:57:17.680 --> 01:57:23.279
to add scale and detail, like
the little roll bar at the top that

1362
01:57:23.359 --> 01:57:29.520
has the torpedo launcher, just different
things. It's a smaller ship, scrappier

1363
01:57:29.600 --> 01:57:35.960
ship puts up a heck of a
fight. It's fabulous. And also what

1364
01:57:36.159 --> 01:57:40.000
is great and I love about star
Trek because they love to pinch pennies.

1365
01:57:40.359 --> 01:57:44.640
That the bridge of the Reliant is
just the Enterprise bridge, just painted blue.

1366
01:57:45.720 --> 01:57:50.359
Yow, that's cool. I love
it as supposed to Star Wars where

1367
01:57:50.359 --> 01:57:55.119
they have their money cannon. They're
like, there's a problem money cannon.

1368
01:57:56.600 --> 01:58:00.159
Well, and I think that brings
Another great thing about about Ratha Conn is

1369
01:58:00.199 --> 01:58:03.880
that you get to see two Federation
starships in combat with each other, which

1370
01:58:03.960 --> 01:58:09.000
is fucking cool. So yeah,
it is true in a nebula, which

1371
01:58:09.119 --> 01:58:13.520
is fab Yeah, trite them.
Oh gosh, so good. They'd do

1372
01:58:13.600 --> 01:58:18.880
a submarine fight in space. It
works. Speaking of you, should you

1373
01:58:18.920 --> 01:58:24.600
should watch Greyhound if I haven't told
you that already. Right, it's a

1374
01:58:24.720 --> 01:58:28.680
new it's a Tom Hanks movie.
He adapted it from a book and then

1375
01:58:28.760 --> 01:58:31.680
he stars in it. And it's
only available at Apple because it was released

1376
01:58:31.800 --> 01:58:35.960
right, it was supposed to be
released at the right about when the pandemic

1377
01:58:36.039 --> 01:58:40.279
happened. But I remember this,
I remember that movie coming out the classes

1378
01:58:40.359 --> 01:58:43.000
ship that my grandfather was on in
World War Two, So it's like kind

1379
01:58:43.039 --> 01:58:45.159
of cool to watch. But anyway, go ahead, I picked that ship.

1380
01:58:45.359 --> 01:58:49.000
I picked the ship that your grandfather
was on. Oh, that would

1381
01:58:49.039 --> 01:58:57.319
be the USS Ross, a Fletcher
class destroyer that is the only destroyer in

1382
01:58:58.119 --> 01:59:02.479
US destroying World War two to survive
two mind hits. And my grandfather was

1383
01:59:02.560 --> 01:59:08.199
on it for both of those and
he came back and as my mom says,

1384
01:59:08.279 --> 01:59:13.520
he never talked about it. So
there you go. Trauma, yes,

1385
01:59:14.840 --> 01:59:19.520
trauma which which got passed down to
me in weird ways. But anyway,

1386
01:59:19.680 --> 01:59:30.479
moving on, liking Rise of Skywalker, the correlation, no wonder you're

1387
01:59:30.520 --> 01:59:36.399
not anymore. I have clients come
in. I'd be like seeing you movies

1388
01:59:36.439 --> 01:59:40.279
lately, and they'd be like,
I love Roque One. I'd be like,

1389
01:59:40.359 --> 01:59:46.640
you're fucking idiot. I like one
because it's like the first Star Wars

1390
01:59:46.720 --> 01:59:51.760
movie that's actually a war movie.
Fuck you. I never said that.

1391
01:59:54.359 --> 02:00:01.600
Sounds like you've got some intergenerational trauma
fucking on you. Rogue one. My

1392
02:00:02.000 --> 02:00:08.239
Star Wars rankings go Empire Rogue one, Rogue one is two. So there

1393
02:00:08.279 --> 02:00:14.359
you go. All right, now, let's talk about some romantic ship.

1394
02:00:15.479 --> 02:00:16.760
By the way, are we supposed
to do in each franchise? Each of

1395
02:00:16.840 --> 02:00:19.520
us is supposed to do an each
franchise? How did you get one shot?

1396
02:00:19.640 --> 02:00:23.520
You get one shot? You get
to pick either of them. I

1397
02:00:23.600 --> 02:00:26.039
think I still chose correctly. Good. Yeah, yeah, no, no,

1398
02:00:26.079 --> 02:00:30.000
no, no, I I thought
Kenny might have picked the Reliance,

1399
02:00:30.119 --> 02:00:34.439
So I think it's I think Kenny
was supposed to pick the Reliant. I

1400
02:00:34.479 --> 02:00:38.520
think that's what it needed to be, and Kenny was the guy to pick

1401
02:00:38.560 --> 02:00:42.600
its. So now we got to
do romantic ships from either of them.

1402
02:00:43.680 --> 02:00:46.720
I know there's actually a lot to
choose from. There were a few,

1403
02:00:46.840 --> 02:00:53.079
well, I mean Jesus, christ
Lea and Han, you know, like,

1404
02:00:54.239 --> 02:00:58.760
yeah, I just we're just gonna
forget that huge one, you know,

1405
02:00:59.199 --> 02:01:02.760
or have I have Han? No, I think no, because whenever

1406
02:01:02.840 --> 02:01:08.920
we did our first Empire, we
weren't doing our starship. No, I

1407
02:01:08.960 --> 02:01:12.279
don't want it because part of the
reason why I called you out cheesy cop

1408
02:01:12.319 --> 02:01:14.920
outs on this one is because I'm
going to do a cheesy cop out.

1409
02:01:16.760 --> 02:01:25.279
I'm going to do me and Star
Wars. That's my sort of my name's

1410
02:01:25.359 --> 02:01:27.479
Ryan Hill. You want me to
do, I'll do mine right now,

1411
02:01:27.680 --> 02:01:32.520
I'll do Okay. So mine is
because and this actually could apply to either

1412
02:01:32.560 --> 02:01:38.760
franchise, but because both of these
franchises make me think about my dad so

1413
02:01:38.840 --> 02:01:42.159
much, whom I lost about a
year and a half ago. Is Mine

1414
02:01:42.319 --> 02:01:46.439
is all the relationships that these two
franchises facilitated, all the real world relationships

1415
02:01:46.479 --> 02:01:51.600
that these two franchises made better.
I know, right, I knew you

1416
02:01:51.800 --> 02:01:55.600
like that, And Kenny gave me
a thumbs down. Yeah, because it's

1417
02:01:55.680 --> 02:02:01.079
not an answer. I like it, But every time, every time you

1418
02:02:01.199 --> 02:02:05.000
did it what I've been calling a
cheesy cop out Aspen, I've been thinking

1419
02:02:05.079 --> 02:02:08.640
about what I'm going to do,
and this is the one that like stood

1420
02:02:08.720 --> 02:02:12.119
out for me because these two things
mean so much to me because of my

1421
02:02:12.279 --> 02:02:17.399
dad. My dad took me to
CDs and you know my daddy, so

1422
02:02:18.159 --> 02:02:26.800
is my dad. Let's see I
Mine is Land Han, well, fuck

1423
02:02:28.279 --> 02:02:34.239
it should be listen listen and this
is the movie where you have to do

1424
02:02:34.399 --> 02:02:39.239
it because it's the first one where
they really start getting into it when they're

1425
02:02:39.279 --> 02:02:44.680
in that little space. Oh my
god, he's so fucking creepy. And

1426
02:02:44.920 --> 02:02:47.159
like I think we've talked about this
before where I like feel like I have

1427
02:02:47.760 --> 02:02:53.119
I'm less frustrated by it, and
because I think she has such agency and

1428
02:02:53.159 --> 02:02:56.479
she's written with such agency, so
it makes me feel like it's less creepy

1429
02:02:56.479 --> 02:03:00.840
because there's like a rather than him
having more power, she has a different

1430
02:03:00.880 --> 02:03:02.720
type of power. So that's why
it works for me. And then also

1431
02:03:02.880 --> 02:03:06.600
it's just like she's like, I
happen to like nice men. He's like,

1432
02:03:06.840 --> 02:03:11.039
I can be nice, and he
like grabs her and he kisses her,

1433
02:03:11.319 --> 02:03:15.079
and I was just like, hoh
dog. But as I said in

1434
02:03:15.199 --> 02:03:21.479
the first Empire episode, Han Solo's
first lines of dialogue is him trying to

1435
02:03:21.560 --> 02:03:27.000
get to say by de lay and
Lea's like see it. And so Han

1436
02:03:27.119 --> 02:03:30.640
Solo is the one that's but her
because he's he's got so into her,

1437
02:03:30.680 --> 02:03:41.439
he's got feelings, he's so under
her. She's she's stunning, and I

1438
02:03:41.479 --> 02:03:47.479
mean Carrie Fisher is smoking hot,
and then she's like incredibly strong and independent

1439
02:03:48.159 --> 02:03:55.920
and like how yeah, yeah,
I actually have on my wall. I

1440
02:03:56.079 --> 02:04:00.199
have that like what are they called
when you have like the pics sure of

1441
02:04:00.239 --> 02:04:05.920
the silhouette and profile silhouettes, Yeah, silhouettes and profile And it's like two

1442
02:04:06.319 --> 02:04:09.880
pieces, like the one is like
a land it says I love you,

1443
02:04:10.000 --> 02:04:12.159
and on the other side, I
have Han it says I know, oh,

1444
02:04:12.239 --> 02:04:15.680
I know. That moment is so
hilarious. My dad laughed out loud

1445
02:04:15.760 --> 02:04:19.239
at that moment. I remember it, and he just thought that was so

1446
02:04:19.479 --> 02:04:25.079
funny. It's so in character.
Yeah, my dad wanted to think that

1447
02:04:25.199 --> 02:04:28.439
he was Han solo like so many
men. But yeah, you know,

1448
02:04:28.800 --> 02:04:32.399
so yeah, okay, So if
I was going to pick a real relationship

1449
02:04:32.640 --> 02:04:39.439
from the movies, it would be
Kirk and David. So like, I

1450
02:04:39.520 --> 02:04:43.319
mean, I know it's not romantic, but again, it's like, I

1451
02:04:43.560 --> 02:04:47.800
love how David is like fuck this
guy. From the very beginning, he's

1452
02:04:47.840 --> 02:04:51.479
like, fuck this military piece of
shit, and then at the end he's

1453
02:04:51.560 --> 02:04:55.960
like, I was wrong about you. I mean, it's it's awesome.

1454
02:04:56.560 --> 02:05:01.960
So it also seems like he doesn't
know that his dad is Kirk, Yeah,

1455
02:05:02.439 --> 02:05:06.840
which is fabulous. And then apparently
that conversation just happens off screen.

1456
02:05:06.960 --> 02:05:14.840
Happens off screen. Yeah, and
if David sees a man broken at the

1457
02:05:15.000 --> 02:05:21.000
end because he's their interaction is Kirk
saying, uh, would you like a

1458
02:05:21.079 --> 02:05:25.920
drink? I just poured myself one, And he's trying to compose himself because

1459
02:05:25.920 --> 02:05:31.279
he's just thrown his broken glasses down
and he's trying to read a Tale of

1460
02:05:31.359 --> 02:05:34.960
Two Cities, and David's very sweet
to him, like David. He's not,

1461
02:05:35.279 --> 02:05:41.159
He's not He's real with him.
He's like, you've never really experienced

1462
02:05:41.199 --> 02:05:45.760
death to have you know, you've
not really faced death, and but you

1463
02:05:45.840 --> 02:05:48.720
know he's good to him though.
It's nice. And the fact is my

1464
02:05:48.880 --> 02:05:55.439
Dean, David is my Dean to
to to Captain Kirk. If I'm Captain

1465
02:05:55.520 --> 02:06:00.520
Kirk, then David is Dean.
You know, Dean is my open thirty

1466
02:06:00.560 --> 02:06:02.840
two year olds. Then Dine ling
A Lang, Dane ling A Lang.

1467
02:06:04.199 --> 02:06:09.079
Yeah. The fact that whenever they
hug, it is just the most awkward

1468
02:06:10.159 --> 02:06:15.600
hug. I know, it's it's
so powerful. I've heard that. I've

1469
02:06:15.640 --> 02:06:18.199
heard that Shatner has like a terrible
relationship with his daughter as well. I'm

1470
02:06:18.239 --> 02:06:24.560
sure. I'm sure. I'm sure. Do you know who shows up in

1471
02:06:24.680 --> 02:06:28.319
Psych as one of the character's dads
and he's also a piece of shit in

1472
02:06:28.399 --> 02:06:33.319
that show? The character not It
depends on who you ask, I'm sure.

1473
02:06:33.600 --> 02:06:45.960
Anyways, most people, Hmmm,
I can't really ship Kirk and Carrol

1474
02:06:45.399 --> 02:06:50.920
on the the they have such a
wonderful chemistry. Why not do what?

1475
02:06:51.640 --> 02:07:00.520
Okay, I'm gonna ship Kirkan Carol
Marcus, Yeah, yl Mark, who

1476
02:07:00.600 --> 02:07:05.680
wonderfully did not appear in her underwear
in this film. The huge frustration I

1477
02:07:05.760 --> 02:07:11.479
had with the modern one with Carol
Marcus. I mean, Star Trek into

1478
02:07:11.520 --> 02:07:15.000
Darkness is a trash fire, basically
the risest sky of the Star Trek franchise.

1479
02:07:16.439 --> 02:07:23.520
But yeah, what is unfortunate about
how great they are together is that

1480
02:07:23.880 --> 02:07:27.760
fandom kind of took that and went
Kirk and Carol Marcus they are a couple

1481
02:07:27.800 --> 02:07:30.399
of goals. They are true loves
to each other, as opposed to how

1482
02:07:30.439 --> 02:07:32.800
it is here, which is they
are very much just like we have a

1483
02:07:32.880 --> 02:07:41.239
mutual understanding. Yeah, they are
adults. They understand that their lives are

1484
02:07:41.319 --> 02:07:45.760
not compatible. But I think they
still have a great amount of respect for

1485
02:07:45.920 --> 02:07:54.439
each other. Yeah, were we
going to be together? Were we ever

1486
02:07:54.520 --> 02:08:01.880
going to be? I wanted him
in mind devastating line, and then Kirk

1487
02:08:03.000 --> 02:08:05.760
is going, how do I feel? I feel? Old? Worn out,

1488
02:08:07.039 --> 02:08:11.800
tired? It is it is too
much bread? Yeah, and he

1489
02:08:11.840 --> 02:08:16.840
says that he says that line,
Yeah, I love a good Lord of

1490
02:08:16.840 --> 02:08:20.800
the Rings quote. And then Gandal
puts the Genesis device in an envelope until

1491
02:08:22.239 --> 02:08:26.520
comes back and he puts it away
for seventeen years. Gandal says, keep

1492
02:08:26.520 --> 02:08:31.600
it secret, keep it safe,
Safe, I'm trying to help you.

1493
02:08:35.760 --> 02:08:41.319
The Kirk can care I mean again
Star Trek two. It's a very grown

1494
02:08:41.399 --> 02:08:46.239
up version of the TV show.
And what is so wonderful about Shatton's performance

1495
02:08:48.039 --> 02:08:54.439
throughout is how worn out he is
and the button at the end of him

1496
02:08:54.479 --> 02:09:01.960
feeling young because he's just never felt
lost like this before. It's really beautiful,

1497
02:09:01.640 --> 02:09:11.239
how fascinating that for Kirk, the
experience of the failure, the loss,

1498
02:09:11.840 --> 02:09:16.800
the challenge that maybe making the wrong
choices or whatever might look like is

1499
02:09:16.960 --> 02:09:22.560
what reminds him of like a life
worth living, which I feel like ties

1500
02:09:22.800 --> 02:09:26.600
right back to the idea of like
The Empire is a hard film and what

1501
02:09:26.680 --> 02:09:28.680
does it mean to be like we
can make it through this thing. That's

1502
02:09:28.760 --> 02:09:33.439
what the stories are for, speaking
of making it through this thing. I

1503
02:09:33.560 --> 02:09:37.399
feel like we are finally at the
end of the episode. Wow, Kenny,

1504
02:09:37.800 --> 02:09:41.960
do you not like it when Ryan
and I talk about things? No,

1505
02:09:43.239 --> 02:09:48.520
art is a binary. Also,
we're just like we are going bad.

1506
02:09:48.560 --> 02:09:52.279
I took him nap earlier though,
so just so you know, I

1507
02:09:52.319 --> 02:09:56.960
took a nap. What we gotta
rank this. We gotta rank this on

1508
02:09:58.079 --> 02:10:01.640
a scale of one to ten.
We do again. Uh for a reminder,

1509
02:10:03.039 --> 02:10:07.720
the properties again are started to the
Wrath of Khan versus the Empire strikes

1510
02:10:07.800 --> 02:10:13.119
Back and uh Ryan, uh,
animal's discretion. Would you like to start

1511
02:10:13.159 --> 02:10:18.279
us off? Yeah? Boy,
So we're supposed to rank it one to

1512
02:10:18.399 --> 02:10:22.079
ten. Huh yeah? And which
one do you want to you want to

1513
02:10:22.119 --> 02:10:26.600
start with? Yeah, let's start
with Empire, starting with Empire? Nice.

1514
02:10:28.000 --> 02:10:35.880
I'm so reluctant to give anything a
ten because and don't because because there

1515
02:10:35.640 --> 02:10:39.000
well I recently heard you guys give
something at ten. I can't remember city.

1516
02:10:41.199 --> 02:10:46.359
Yeah, which is perfect well played. Although I have my issues with

1517
02:10:46.399 --> 02:10:52.119
Harlan Ellison as well. But uh
yeah, some of his some of his

1518
02:10:52.520 --> 02:10:56.920
short stories. Have you ever read
I have no mouth and I must scream

1519
02:10:58.640 --> 02:11:01.039
and tell me what you think of
sounds metal? No? I read oral

1520
02:11:01.199 --> 02:11:09.159
History is about mad Max Ferry wrote
not yeah is uh he Yeah? He

1521
02:11:09.239 --> 02:11:13.560
can be so dark. But anyway, let's see. Do I want to

1522
02:11:13.600 --> 02:11:18.359
give Empire strikes Back at ten?
Yes? You agree with me? AskMen?

1523
02:11:18.439 --> 02:11:22.119
Right? Yeah? Yeah, you
should give it a ten. Just

1524
02:11:22.199 --> 02:11:24.159
give a ten to give it a
ten? Do it? Yeah? Do

1525
02:11:24.239 --> 02:11:33.359
it? Do it? Your coward? Nice try. I know I'm a

1526
02:11:33.439 --> 02:11:41.319
coward that doesn't bother me. Let's
see nine point I'm gonna give it a

1527
02:11:41.520 --> 02:11:48.159
nine to seven nine point seven because
things can always be better, and I

1528
02:11:48.199 --> 02:11:52.000
could think of a you know,
it's like yeah, so yeah, but

1529
02:11:52.119 --> 02:11:56.119
it's yeah, but it's but it's
definitely the best Star Wars film. So

1530
02:11:56.960 --> 02:12:05.720
yeah, there you go. I'm
gonna give this one eight. Yeah,

1531
02:12:07.000 --> 02:12:11.359
I'm giving it an eight good movie. Perfection doesn't exist. I'm giving it

1532
02:12:11.399 --> 02:12:18.560
a ten. Huh. I like
that because I was like, perfection doesn't

1533
02:12:18.600 --> 02:12:22.279
exist, therefore I can't give it
a ten, and you're like, perfection

1534
02:12:22.399 --> 02:12:26.000
doesn't exist, therefore I will give
it a ten. Yeah. Nice?

1535
02:12:26.600 --> 02:12:30.720
And do you have I don't.
Well, we'll get into it. Start

1536
02:12:30.760 --> 02:12:43.159
Trek two, uh Emmi Emil Hill, Oh God, poor ride. You

1537
02:12:43.199 --> 02:12:46.039
guys are used to this. Oh
but I still do this though, I'm

1538
02:12:46.079 --> 02:12:48.880
like, huh oh, why didn't
I think of this beforehand? Like a

1539
02:12:50.079 --> 02:12:58.720
stupid improviser, I didn't prepare right? Okay, as as God, it's

1540
02:12:58.840 --> 02:13:07.680
so good. I I and even
on rewatching it, like the how long

1541
02:13:07.760 --> 02:13:11.520
after the first time I saw it? Fifty no, forty years after the

1542
02:13:11.520 --> 02:13:13.680
first time I saw it? More
than forty years after the first time I

1543
02:13:13.720 --> 02:13:18.560
saw it, it was it was
even better. It was like better than

1544
02:13:18.640 --> 02:13:24.800
I thought it was going to be. And the media that grows. Yeah,

1545
02:13:26.079 --> 02:13:31.680
but I still and the weird thing
is now now I like it.

1546
02:13:33.439 --> 02:13:35.680
Forgive me now, I like I
came into this being more of a Star

1547
02:13:35.760 --> 02:13:41.520
Wars person than a Star Trek person, But I actually now I like it

1548
02:13:41.479 --> 02:13:46.199
at least as much and maybe more
than Empire. But back in the day,

1549
02:13:46.560 --> 02:13:56.920
I definitely like Star Wars more.
Jesus, I'm and having said that,

1550
02:13:56.960 --> 02:14:05.760
I'm going to have to give it
a nine point eight. It's just

1551
02:14:05.880 --> 02:14:13.000
so good. Yeah, I'm gonna
give this a nine point eight as well.

1552
02:14:13.560 --> 02:14:18.359
Wow, that's that'll be. That'll
be the most precisely that our tastes

1553
02:14:18.439 --> 02:14:24.279
have ever aligned. Kenny, ten, perfection doesn't exist. Well done,

1554
02:14:24.600 --> 02:14:28.880
well done. I love it how
you gave both of them at ten.

1555
02:14:28.960 --> 02:14:35.880
That's great swing for it. Uh. For me, I feel like Wrath

1556
02:14:35.039 --> 02:14:39.560
kN Obviously I'm biased for Star Trek, but I feel like Empire Strikes Back

1557
02:14:39.119 --> 02:14:46.880
feels like an incomplete story fundamentally versus
Wrath of Khan, which is a complete

1558
02:14:46.920 --> 02:14:54.199
thesis. But there is still better
Star Trek out there. Which means what

1559
02:14:54.359 --> 02:14:58.760
a squeaker This week, folks,
squeaker. The Empire strikes back with a

1560
02:15:00.520 --> 02:15:07.239
very robust nine point two three,
which compared to our initial ranking of just

1561
02:15:07.399 --> 02:15:13.359
an eight versus Star Trek to the
Wrath of Khan coming at a nine point

1562
02:15:13.640 --> 02:15:22.319
eight seven, which means love it
quite satisfied for this baby boy. Star

1563
02:15:22.439 --> 02:15:28.920
Trek wins the week. I think
that's I think that's accurate. Star Trek

1564
02:15:28.000 --> 02:15:33.680
should win this week, but just
barely. And they're both very highly rated.

1565
02:15:33.359 --> 02:15:37.399
Just barely. Yeah, Well,
I think the real winner this week

1566
02:15:37.960 --> 02:15:45.680
is us is the friends we made
along the way? Wow bye? Remember

1567
02:15:46.119 --> 02:15:52.039
remembering Rise of Skywalker where Chubaka dies, Oh god, but then turns out

1568
02:15:52.079 --> 02:15:56.479
he was on another ship that was
identical. Yeah, you remember when C

1569
02:15:56.600 --> 02:16:05.560
three po lost his memory for three
minutes? Why why are we bringing this

1570
02:16:05.720 --> 02:16:07.920
up? You know? Why are
we clowning on our great friend Ryan?

1571
02:16:07.119 --> 02:16:13.640
Ryan? We love you, you
know. I I will admit that I

1572
02:16:13.399 --> 02:16:20.039
that my evaluations of films are very
gut level. They're very like, oh

1573
02:16:20.479 --> 02:16:24.960
I love that, how dare you? It's not dare you? Just enjoy

1574
02:16:26.039 --> 02:16:28.920
things and it's when I hear people
and it's one of the reasons why I

1575
02:16:30.039 --> 02:16:37.040
like, I deeply appreciate like your
your study and of film and of media

1576
02:16:37.079 --> 02:16:39.319
and everything Kenny. But then also
I find it like you know, like

1577
02:16:39.520 --> 02:16:43.920
eh, I didn't like it or
I liked it, you know, which

1578
02:16:43.959 --> 02:16:48.920
is also outrageously valid because at the
end of the day, these things are

1579
02:16:50.760 --> 02:16:56.879
are made just to entertain. Even
art is a binary. Absolutely, Brian,

1580
02:16:58.360 --> 02:17:03.760
you said that you appreciate Kenny's like
study. Do you just appreciate me

1581
02:17:03.079 --> 02:17:09.520
for being funny? Oh? There
are so many feelings. I'm so sorry.

1582
02:17:09.520 --> 02:17:13.040
I didn't want to. Did that
come across as that I didn't appreciate

1583
02:17:13.079 --> 02:17:13.680
you. No, no, no, not at all. No, no,

1584
02:17:13.760 --> 02:17:16.360
no, no no, I just
wanted you to say something nice.

1585
02:17:18.000 --> 02:17:20.239
Oh, okay, I appreciate.
I appreciate so many, very many things

1586
02:17:20.280 --> 02:17:24.680
about you, so hard to it
would be hard to like enumerate them all.

1587
02:17:26.520 --> 02:17:31.760
The tallest person I've ever met,
I'm very average. That's that's what's

1588
02:17:31.760 --> 02:17:37.079
great about Aspens, the tallest person
I've ever met. Whenever I speak to

1589
02:17:37.200 --> 02:17:41.639
Aspen, I feel very seen and
I feel very connected to her, and

1590
02:17:41.760 --> 02:17:46.799
that is that is the greatest thing
about Aspen to me. So well,

1591
02:17:46.959 --> 02:17:52.639
folks, it's been a great podcast, Ryan for folks that are fans of

1592
02:17:52.719 --> 02:17:56.559
you. Are there any places that
you can direct folks to go see more

1593
02:17:56.600 --> 02:18:03.159
of you? Listen to more of
you? Boy? Uh, not really.

1594
02:18:03.319 --> 02:18:07.600
Oh, Fragile Rock my band,
my crazy stupid band that I'm in,

1595
02:18:07.680 --> 02:18:11.360
which is an emo puppet band.
We are about to record an album

1596
02:18:13.360 --> 02:18:18.719
in the next couple of weeks,
congratulations, that will be coming out soon.

1597
02:18:18.879 --> 02:18:22.000
But you could also go see our
tiny disc consert. Just look it

1598
02:18:22.079 --> 02:18:26.120
up on YouTube at Fragile Rock on
you know, tiny desk and yeah,

1599
02:18:26.879 --> 02:18:33.120
so and you'll see me in the
background playing guitar. But that's kind of

1600
02:18:33.200 --> 02:18:37.319
my main thing these days is that's
like my main creative outlet is Fragile Rock.

1601
02:18:37.799 --> 02:18:43.120
So yay. It's very talented and
very kind and wonderful. I hasn't

1602
02:18:43.120 --> 02:18:52.760
got anything to plug oh besides this
podcast. Yeah, well yeah, two

1603
02:18:52.840 --> 02:18:58.440
shows as they come up, people
could cut. I mean, if people

1604
02:18:58.479 --> 02:19:01.040
are in Austin are listening to this
as it comes out, I guess there's

1605
02:19:01.079 --> 02:19:03.639
a show I was on that was
Tim Burton Themes that gets a bonus.

1606
02:19:05.520 --> 02:19:09.120
Yeah, yeah, coming out on
the I'll be on the sixteenth. Yeah,

1607
02:19:11.000 --> 02:19:13.479
just hanging out, you know.
But I'm also like teaching, I'm

1608
02:19:13.520 --> 02:19:18.200
prov I'm I'm very proud of the
Christmas lights I put on my house over

1609
02:19:18.239 --> 02:19:20.399
the last few days. So if
you I'm not going to tell you where

1610
02:19:20.399 --> 02:19:22.600
I live, but if you happen
to drive by my house, they're pretty

1611
02:19:22.600 --> 02:19:37.799
cool where you live. My children
are adorable? Yeah, yeah, okay,

1612
02:19:39.799 --> 02:19:43.680
all right? Outstanding And uh,
folks, if you are eager to

1613
02:19:43.959 --> 02:19:48.280
get into the conversation with us,
shoot us an email. Check Warspod at

1614
02:19:48.360 --> 02:19:52.319
gmail dot com. Additionally, uh, if you just loved this episode you're

1615
02:19:52.360 --> 02:19:56.799
eager to get even more, hop
over to our website, trek warspod dot

1616
02:19:56.920 --> 02:20:00.799
com, where, if you are
so inclined, please leave us a review.

1617
02:20:00.920 --> 02:20:03.399
Click on the reviews tap at the
top of the page and leave us

1618
02:20:03.440 --> 02:20:07.639
a review, or follow over to
the podcast of your choice leave us a

1619
02:20:07.719 --> 02:20:11.879
five star rating there as well.
Also, if you just love this so

1620
02:20:13.000 --> 02:20:16.000
much and you want to do even
more than just leave a great review,

1621
02:20:16.559 --> 02:20:20.440
when'd you hop over to the Patreon
Patreon dot com slash trak wars pond where

1622
02:20:20.600 --> 02:20:24.399
for fight dollars a month you can
get early versions of these episodes and extended

1623
02:20:24.479 --> 02:20:31.040
versions of these episodes and talk with
us such as we got a comment aspin

1624
02:20:33.159 --> 02:20:37.360
is it my partner again? Yes, it is comment on our episode what

1625
02:20:37.440 --> 02:20:41.639
does it Mean to be Culturally Humble? Otherwise known as our Friday's Child versus

1626
02:20:41.719 --> 02:20:48.159
Heart Cell, slash a Warrior and
Alerto. The comment goes Friday's Child two

1627
02:20:48.280 --> 02:20:56.440
things, number one McCoy the crypto
Catholic confirmed and number two Mama Maya.

1628
02:20:58.000 --> 02:21:03.280
So I really appreciate that insight,
no idea, and you two could leave

1629
02:21:03.479 --> 02:21:07.159
comments like that if you hop over
to our Patreon, Patreon dot com,

1630
02:21:07.319 --> 02:21:11.120
Last Truck Coarse Pod, and you
could join the wonderful auspices of fine folks

1631
02:21:11.159 --> 02:21:13.959
such as Timbou, Dessa, Eily, Bryce Love, Heidi Rogers, Kevin

1632
02:21:15.000 --> 02:21:20.319
Miller, Mark Vibert, Ryan Hill
and oh that's Ryan Ryan. I like

1633
02:21:20.360 --> 02:21:26.239
the Ryan that's on you, This
Ryan I have. I have Patreon,

1634
02:21:26.600 --> 02:21:31.120
like I think at least the last
like five podcasts that Kenny has done.

1635
02:21:31.360 --> 02:21:35.520
Oh see, just Air is a
very good supportive front. Well. I

1636
02:21:37.159 --> 02:21:41.799
also just like the content a lot. So I can I can ride my

1637
02:21:41.920 --> 02:21:45.520
bike and not be bored and it's
like I took a couple of friends on

1638
02:21:45.600 --> 02:21:48.319
a bike ride with me. It's
really nice speaking of bringing a couple of

1639
02:21:48.319 --> 02:21:52.399
friends on a bike ride. We
brought two friends on this bike ride music

1640
02:21:52.520 --> 02:22:00.280
wise, and that is Jolty partner
delivering our I starship at song and Awa

1641
02:22:00.360 --> 02:22:05.120
Fay. So thank you so much, Ryan, Oh my god, such

1642
02:22:05.120 --> 02:22:09.799
a good job. If you need, if you need any music done for

1643
02:22:09.079 --> 02:22:15.120
anything, I recommend getting in touch
with do. It's like Tostin does.

1644
02:22:15.159 --> 02:22:18.239
Like yeah, the music for all
of our everybody, all of our friends,

1645
02:22:18.360 --> 02:22:22.639
podcast entire Austar and improv community,
anybody who does the podcast Tosawa Music.

1646
02:22:24.040 --> 02:22:26.360
So Ryan, thank you so much
for doing our podcast. You guys.

1647
02:22:26.639 --> 02:22:30.159
I love you, buddy. It's
so good, true, it's gonna

1648
02:22:30.239 --> 02:22:35.000
blast. I love you buddies,
both of you, buddies. I love

1649
02:22:35.079 --> 02:22:41.120
you both. Please tell your respective
partners or dating peoples that I said hello,

1650
02:22:41.639 --> 02:22:46.120
same to you. We'll do.
And your children, Yes, my

1651
02:22:46.200 --> 02:22:50.479
beautiful children. I meant to tell
you. You remember the light up unicorn

1652
02:22:50.600 --> 02:22:54.000
ball you gave to Dylan for Christmas
a few years ago? Do you remember

1653
02:22:54.040 --> 02:22:58.479
that? Do you remember that?
You don't? You got Dylan? You

1654
02:22:58.559 --> 02:23:03.479
got Yeah, you got Dylan.
You got Dylan in the Secret Santa and

1655
02:23:03.600 --> 02:23:05.280
I but I did I also give
him like an Elmo. You gave him

1656
02:23:05.280 --> 02:23:09.399
a lot of different things, but
the light up unicorn balls was very popular

1657
02:23:09.440 --> 02:23:13.239
for a long time until it died. Oh my gosh. Well I just

1658
02:23:13.760 --> 02:23:18.040
I hope you know that what you
gave me, and that's a good Santa's

1659
02:23:18.239 --> 02:23:20.879
also belove it. I'm like,
I can say what it is. You

1660
02:23:20.920 --> 02:23:24.799
have to say what it is.
It's a remote control what's can I can't?

1661
02:23:24.840 --> 02:23:28.239
I remember his name? Do O. It's do O. It's a

1662
02:23:28.319 --> 02:23:33.719
remote control Doo. The Rise of
Skywalker the best part of rises. There

1663
02:23:33.799 --> 02:23:37.440
we go because he's like, don't
touch me, take you no, thank

1664
02:23:37.520 --> 02:23:43.959
you. He's up. I have
him up on like my my shelf of

1665
02:23:45.159 --> 02:23:48.200
stuff and he's there. He's up
there. I want I wanted to report

1666
02:23:48.239 --> 02:23:52.639
on him. So yeah, I
sometimes drive him around. It's just and

1667
02:23:52.799 --> 02:24:01.920
freak out my cat. Sorry,
audience, audience, we love you.

1668
02:24:01.680 --> 02:24:05.399
Yes, Live long and prosper,
and may the Force be with you,

1669
02:24:07.600 --> 02:24:11.680
amen, amen, and also with
you